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Comment by ixnu | Hacker News Reader

Many "recreational" athletes push themselves harder than olympic competitors. Their bottleneck is talent and they attempt to overcome this with drive and determination often against others with similar attributes. Many sink into unhealthy habits in an attempt to just hang on to a weekend group ride or to qualify for Boston.

I was shocked to learn that many weekend warrior friends have sophisticated doping regimes just to stay competitive on group rides. I'm not sure there is an answer.

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"Many "recreational" athletes push themselves harder than olympic competitors. Their bottleneck is talent and they attempt to overcome this with drive and determination"

I would re-label talent as "genetics". [0] There is a genetic profile of people who have the advantages of speed and endurance over mere mortals. [1] Then there is the rest of us. With respect to "drive and determination" I agree. Taking into account age (youth is another measure of fitness), no amount of training, preparation, conditioning or pharmaceuticals make up for this genetic deficit.

Reference

[0] For example the relationship between ACTN3 and sprinting: "Top sprinters may have key gene" (2003) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3183119.stm

[1] "Physical Performance Predictors of Success in Special Forces Assessment and Selection" http://dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a245729.pdf

Isn't that what GP meant? What else would "talent" mean in this context?

Beyond the doping, some Strava.com users take insane risks chasing "King of the Mountain" awards on segments. If they don't have the legs to win on climbs they ride the descents in a reckless manner, risking crashes and car collisions. And this is purely for bragging rights.

http://road.cc/content/news/84948-judge-dismisses-lawsuit-ag...

As someone who has KOM'd a ~10 minute descent in a heavily-trafficked area of the French Alps (adjacent to Alpe d'Huez), I'll say the experience of doing so was sobering. I hadn't set out with an explicit intent to beat the record, but I love descending and was just having a phenomenal time of it. When I uploaded the ride and learned that I'd gotten the fastest time, something sort of clicked that maybe I didn't need to push things so hard and so fast. Surely some component of doing that was skill, but another unknown component was recklessness.

I've never descended quite so aggressively since.

I was always amazed at how little my heart rate went down on the descent.

I thought I was a great descender until I rode with a group of retired pro. They're not just following amazingly fast lines (they know most of the Alps like old friends) - their first-class handling skills allow them to do things that'd get me killed. Things like crossing the centre line into a blind turn on a busy road, bunny-hopping a fallen log at >90 kph, cornering whilst unseated on the top tube. Stuff no amateur should even consider. When they are in trouble (e.g. that blind corner had an oncoming car) they get out of it faster and more precisely and intuitively than I could ever hope to.

It might seem reasonable when you consider they spend kilohours riding, moreover in the company of other world-class athletes, but it's astonishing and terrifying to watch.

Of course, most of them also have war stories to tell, and all of them have shattered ribs, clavicles, vertebrae, pelvic bones at some point in their career. Because beyond the envelope there's nothing but injury and pain and occasionally and very tragically, death.

The very best bicycle descender of my personal acquaintance is a former Moto GP competitor. He has lightning reflexes and an amazing feel for the dynamics of any two-wheeled machine. I'm glad to say he shares his knowledge and occasionally runs free cornering workshops. My ability to read a corner has been greatly enhanced by his teaching, I think he saves lives.

They're not only putting themselves at risk.

Strava cyclists have also killed innocent pedestrians by sprinting through red lights in their attempts at bragging rights.

http://road.cc/content/news/89218-us-cyclist-who-killed-pede...

I had kids on my high school football team taking roids just to make varsity. Meanwhile on my team at the D1 level there were guys who barely lifted weights and looked like greek gods.

The same thing can be seen programming as well. Some people struggle for months to do basic things while others take to it like fish to water.

People don't like talking about how much genetics impacts things because it ruins the "you can be anything you want to be" BS

> competitive on group rides.

Hahaha, made my day! I know it's true, but it never stops making me laugh. I bounce between preferring "cat-6" and "cat-nothing" to refer to those guys.

The bigger problem is likely not solvable, I mean if you want to dope to win a race that isn't actually a race, we probably can't make you right. And to be clear, those people do have problems, they werent loved enough or something. Larry Bird described it best in his book, you can practice, you can select the shot perfectly, you can square up perfectly, and then you can release the ball perfectly, that's all you can do. The ball either goes in to the hoop or it doesn't and he sounded remarkably at peace with it all, which is shocking for how competitive he was conceived to be. Maybe that's easier when you've won everything like he had. I've raced bikes and it's very fun, at times very stressful, but mostly fun, when you're getting paid I understand the motivations are different but I find it hilarious when folks cheat to win nothing, it's like that cringe stuff that is sort of funny because it's so sad.

It's probably the same or similar reason people cheat in online video games.

they should just take up mountain biking instead, cause then you're still biking really hard, but winning isn't totally about who's a bigger genetic freak, and chance and technique have a much larger role in your performance.

I found mountain biking to be less about "I'm going to ride this trail faster than you" and more about "I'm going to ride this trail 'better' than you."

By better I mean with more finesse: a good challenge for example would be riding a tough trail without ever putting a foot down.

Mountain biking also adds an interesting element less present in road cycling, the need for traction control.

Pulling off a tough mountain biking climb involves controlling traction, over loose crumbly soil or roots and rocks. If you try to just mash it the rear wheel will only spin out and you'll blow the climb.

It's not necessarily the guy with monster quads who will be the best at mountain bike climbing, but the guy who can feel where his rear wheel is at all times, and how much traction it has.

Then you just need to be freakishly brave or skilled instead of having freakishly high ATP generation or whatever.

Considering many Olympic runners run 100+ mile weeks I disagree. I have also run on a division 1 cross country team as a walk-on and I saw friends push themselves to the point of passing out across the finish line. That being said weekend warriors often do push themselves very hard.

100+ mile weeks are not that hard. It all depends on how fast you run them. There's a world of difference between running them at 8 minutes a mile and 5-6 minutes a mile. I've run multiple months of consecutive 100 mile weeks, but mostly at a gentle pace. I wouldn't call that pushing myself.

I do agree that many Olympic runners have a gruelling training regime though.

I have peaked out at mid 70 and 80 weeks but a portion of that was hard and/ speedwork. You must have lovely biomechanics to not get hurt with that much bulk even at 8 minute pace. Still hard for 99.9%+ of people. But anyways...

The solution may be more doping and genetic engineering.

As cynical as it sounds, people who're motivated like this are not going to just give up overnight on something they've worked incredibly hard for several years, even decades. I've personally experienced some of this...

>As cynical as it sounds, people who're motivated like this are not going to just give up overnight on something they've worked incredibly hard for several years, even decades.

As cynical as it sounds, if they drop dead from a heart attack (or come close), they will (just give up overnight).

The answer is obviously to be less competitive. Relax, you don't have to "win" everything, just do your best and enjoy the experience.

But how do you know what is your best? Some people (myself included) believe that you can push the human body and mind to do anything you want.

I'm aware this isn't quite true, but in a large sense I truly believe I'm capable of learning anything given enough interest. And probably time

In surfing, there is essentially no mechanism to compete short of a formal competition, which is actually not that popular. There are small pockets where you can find competitions, but for the vast majority of surfers, there is simply nothing to do but your personal best on every wave. It is quite pleasant compared to other sports. Admittedly, also not as aerobically intensive, so fewer calories burned.

Sure but most people don't live near a surfable break. And even for those of us who do there just isn't enough space. Imagine the chaos if all the hard-core cyclists in Silicon Valley tried to go surfing in Santa Cruz every weekend.

I think the point wasn't to suggest that everyone become surfers, just that people taking part in other activities might have something to learn from how surfers approach their activity.

The point is that competition in surfing is difficult to impose on the hobby, so it develops differently. But you can intentionally take the same approach to other "sports" and hobbies. Just have fun, push yourself when you want to, figure out what you can do, and enjoy it. That applies to running, swimming, bicycling, weight lifting, and so on as much as it does to surfing. Resist the temptation to make everything a contest (even, ugh, yoga), it doesn't have to be.

A little friendly competition is a great motivator in sports that can be easily quantified like running, swimming, bicycling, and weight lifting. For me it really helps in staying fit. When you see your friends posting their workout times and speeds on social media it gives some positive peer pressure to get off the couch. Most of us here have sedentary jobs that are literally killing us so we need to get moving for more than just enjoyment.

Of course, everything in moderation.

I would modify your word "friendly" to instead be "playful". Competition can be healthy, beneficial, and fun, but usually only when it's playful. Consider the difference between a couple kids playing baseball for their own amusement on the one hand and a bunch of stressed out, angry, yelling parents at a little league game. There are extremes to competition and often the point where you try to win at all costs is where things break down and the negatives have the potential to overwhelm the positives.

I don't think that's actually the point. Don't fret so much about it; that's actually the problem. Just do your thing, and be happy without the need to push your limits so hard that you might break yourself. People often ignore the "healthy" bit from the phrase "a bit of healthy competition". And that includes competing with yourself.

Another answer is to get a coach, who can hopefully step back and see if you're doing more harm than good to yourself, instead of just lone-wolfing it.

I am a way-not-competitive runner. Jogger, really, since 1971. One marathon a year to get me out in the winter, best finish 4:30 (I am 58). No one ever said, "Uh oh, Jim is in this one, I'd better up my game."

But I had ablation at 43. So it is not clear to me that it is about pushing beyond boundaries.

I read that doing a marathon without proper and protracted training is very hard on the heart, so you may have been pushing too hard.

I do the standard training, starting from 20m/w at the new year, and running on Memorial Day. (I follow Amby Burfoot's excellent plan.)

Certainly my story is anecdotal. But I guess I'm just saying that while bodies are amazing, sometimes they are amazingly frail.

I could not really enjoy activities that way. If I had to do something "just to enjoy experience", I pretty soon lost interest - there was no point in it for me (I mean I could still do it to be with friends, but not for activity itseft).

https://tapastic.com/episode/427055

That's a thing you can train yourself to change, if you want.

The way society is currently set up, this answer doesn't make much sense. Look everywhere you see, competitiveness and drive is encouraged, top athletes are worshiped and paid zounds of money, and the importance of genetics is quickly swept under the rug.

It doesn't really make sense to tell people to be less competitive when pretty much everyone and everything else tells them to be more so.

I understand what you are saying, but we need to remember one thing: it was all recreational! Good God, the man wasn't being chased by killers, he was doing this for fun!

The fact is, I don't care who you are, there are limits imposed on the 50 year old body. There just are. If you want to keep active, that's great, but what ever happened to being reasonable? Why is everyone in such a rush all the time to have more fun faster and harder than anyone else?

Maybe this is an artifact of civilization? Since we are no longer being chased by tigers we need to "fun" ourselves to death. Who knows.

To be fair, the article makes it clear that he never felt like he was "pushing" too hard before the incident. It may be he didn't notice his body talking to him, or maybe it just didn't until it was too late, which sucks. Everyone is different. I can tell you that I'm over 50 and have definitely noticed the effort and recovery challenges that accompany my age. I'm active and love to run, bike, etc. But it certainly feels different than it did when I was 15. I have to be reasonable about how much I do how fast.

Be reasonable, people.

Oh? Perhaps that is an illusion. Competitiveness drives people to pursue unrealistic goals and adopt questionable priorities, often at the cost of personal happiness, satisfaction, and personal health. Their driven to "win" useless victories at the cost of developing corrosive personalities that makes it more difficult for them to be enjoy life, build valuable friendships, and find meaningful love (romantic or otherwise). People are driven to hurt themselves by exercising beyond their body's limits. They're driven to waste their lives working for others at work of questionable value while sacrificing their own happiness, personal development, families, and relationships.

There is a value to competitiveness but only if it's kept in check and allowed to operate in service to, rather than in replacement of, goals of self-actualization, self-betterment, happiness, kindness, etc.

It does make sense to tell people to question what society is forcing down their throats. How will society change otherwise?

Bingo.

Be your own man and control your ego. Life is sooo much better when you do something for joy, not because you feel compelled to impress someone else. "Look ma!" is for kids (and now, Presidents apparently).

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