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The right talks about more freedom, but their actions result in less of it.

Arbitrary power used to be much more concentrated in one particular race and one particular gender. The left has been trying to diffuse that power, the right is trying to re-concentrate it.

Furthermore, there is the concentration of power that comes with having vastly more money than the median person, and the ability to use it politically. Or the power that comes from monopolistic control over an industry. The left generally seeks to curb these powers (e.g. the fight against Citizens United, or for more antitrust action).

The Magna Carta is illustrative: it's a set of regulations aimed at reducing the exercise of absolute power. The lesson is: if you restrict the powerful, the net freedom of the population increases.

A more modern example: the regulations that prohibit companies from firing their employees without cause are a reduction in freedom for the employer, true. But with them, the far more numerous employees are now more free to be and say things that upset the powerful within the company (in ways that are specifically unrelated to the performance of the work) without fearing retribution. Overall, an increase of freedom.

The right wing, under the banner of "less regulations", have consistently lessened the protections of the weak against arbitrary power. They fight for the freedom of those with money, corporate power, and political influence to do as they please. That's a retrogression of overall freedom, and (IIRC) exactly what Atwood was talking about.

Freedom is a loaded term, like rights.

Its useful to categorise freedoms and rights as being negative or positive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_rights

How can you argue that the right is against the concentration of power when it works to limit voting systematically among people more likely to vote democratic (young people, poor people, counties where people who aren't white are a majority), as well as to gerrymander districts?

There are many ways to concentrate power: The federal government is one, but it can also act as a check on states concentrating power, like states passing voter ID laws, closing DMVs to prevent state ids from being obtained, etc.

Ultimately all political power should be derived from informed American citizens. Whenever any political group works to undermine the ability of Americans to choose their representatives by disenfranchising them or misleading them, and when it works on concentrating their votes using gerrymandering such that legislative bodies are not representational of their constituents, they undermine our system of democracy.

edits: typos and added an "and" for clarification.

>How can you argue that the right is against the concentration of power when it works to limit voting systematically among people more likely to vote democratic (young people, poor people, counties where people who aren't white are a majority)...

Because you've mischaracterized the situation. Making sure only people who are entitled to vote actually vote is about insuring the integrity of the system.

>...as well as to gerrymander districts?

This happens on both sides of the aisle. To pretend only "the right" is doing it is to be oblivious to observed reality.

Actually, things like voter ID requirements and DMV closings are specifically about putting up barriers to voting for people who do have the right to vote, by making it (in some cases) much harder to meet the requirements to exercise their franchise.

You can't look at policies and their arguments in isolation, you have to look at them in context. In context their purpose is clear.

>Actually, things like voter ID requirements and DMV closings are specifically about putting up barriers to voting for people who do have the right to vote, by making it (in some cases) much harder to meet the requirements to exercise their franchise.

No they aren't. This is nonsense from people who are benefiting from voter fraud.

> people who are benefiting from voter fraud.

Where is the evidence that this occurs in any meaningful number at all?

If you want to claim someone is benefiting, then you must have some evidence that it even occurs.

Since we're demanding evidence, do you have any evidence Republicans are deliberately trying to suppress voters?

It's all there in the litigation if you care to look. You could start at e.g. https://www.propublica.org/article/2016-election-lawsuit-tra... and get to e.g. http://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000156-3775-d2b4-a3d7-b7fdaa...

"After years of preclearance and expansion of voting access, by 2013 African American registration and turnout rates had finally reached near-parity with white registration and turnout rates. African Americans were poised to act as a major electoral force. But, on the day after the Supreme Court issued Shelby County v. Holder, 133 S. Ct. 2612 (2013), eliminating preclearance obligations, a leader of the party that newly dominated the legislature (and the party that rarely enjoyed African American support) announced an intention to enact what he characterized as an “omnibus” election law. Before enacting that law, the legislature requested data on the use, by race, of a number of voting practices. Upon receipt of the race data , the General Assembly enacted legislation that restricted voting and registration in five different ways, all of which disproportionately affected African Americans.

In response to claims that intentional racial discrimination animated its action, the State offered only meager justifications. Although the new provisions target African Americans with almost surgical precision, they constitute inapt remedies for the problems assertedly justifying them and, in fact, impose cures for problems that did not exist. "

That's not what I asked. I asked for evidence Republicans were deliberately trying to suppress voters.

Evidence does exist if you care to look. The courts have ruled against redistricting requirements, as a modern example. Historically, I believe the Civil Rights Act should provide all the evidence you need.

This still isn't addressing the point. There are two reasons why Republicans might want to have voter ID laws - to prevent fraud (of which there is plenty of evidence "if you care to look"), or to keep legitimate Democratic voters from voting.

Where is your evidence for intent?

Incidentally... what does the Civil Rights Act have to do with anything? What year is it?

> There are two reasons why Republicans might want to have voter ID laws - to prevent fraud (of which there is plenty of evidence "if you care to look")

There is no evidence of any substantial incidence of any kind of fraud voter ID laws might address. If you disagree, please present the evidence.

> Where is your evidence for intent?

The numerous admissions by Republicans of partisan motivation for and partisan benefits from voter ID over many years, e.g.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/some-republicans-ac...

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/accidental-republica...

Neither article shows what you purport it to show. It's no secret Republicans think they'll do better as a result of voter ID laws, but that doesn't address the point. The Maddow article is particularly disingenuous.

> what does the Civil Rights Act have to do with anything?

You do understand where modern precedent for the DOJ to step in for state and local elections comes from, right?

1950s weren't that long ago and the Republican party as a whole is not all that different when it comes to treatment of minorities. Sure, the rest of the country is here in the 21st century in regards to voter rights -- I can't say the same for Republicans, who again, are attempting to restrict voting rights of D leaning demographics.

Now your standard is to prove intent? Sorry, I am not a mind reader. As stated previous, the courts have ruled (recently in VA for example) that Republican legislators have used their positions in government to systematically disenfranchise minority voters. Whether they meant to? I couldn't tell you, but it is a legal fact determined by our court systems.

Again, this is a legal fact (pending appeal) as things exist, today, in this year of a Republican legislative body disenfranchising black voters. Argue intent all you like, I prefer stick with the facts.

> Diaz's order came in response to allegations that the General Assembly violated the Voting Rights Act by packing too many African-Americans in the 3rd District represented by Rep. Robert C. "Bobby" Scott, D-Newport News.

http://www.dailypress.com/news/politics/dp-nws-redistricting...

I'm done here. All I am doing is repeating myself. All you are doing is ignoring evidence and presenting an impossible standard as your defense.

And since I am feeling particularly generous today, I will assume you are arguing in good faith and really are not aware that no evidence of widespread voter fraud of any kind exists from the last election.

> There have been just four documented cases of voter fraud in the 2016 election

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/01/0-...

It's in the judgement! Search for "intent":

"Faced with this record, we can only conclude that the North Carolina General Assembly enacted the challenged provisions of the law with discriminatory intent."

A judgement isn't actually evidence of intent. Courts in the US are just another layer of politics.

Yea Voter ID is adopted across the world. It's a nonsensical argument it is meant to disenfranchise people in 2017.

Example of Countries with voter id laws: India ,Libya,Ireland, Spain, Greece, France, Malta, Belgium, and Italy

People are against a national ID not voter IDs (which essentially requires a federal/national ID to preserve access). I personally have no problem with a national ID. It seems most opposition comes from the same camp that claims rampant voter fraud is a serious problem.

Automobile-related bureaucracy should have no place at all in anything related to voting. Why should a disabled person who can never make use of the DMV's real purpose have to go there just to exercise a Constitutional right?

If people want voter ID, have them issued by City Hall, or print the voter's name on the sample ballot mailed to the voter's home before the election and have them bring that to the polling place.

Unfortunately, both sides work to systematically limit voting by their opponents, albeit using different tactics because the targets of suppression are different.

See https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-democrats-suppress-... for some details.

The two are no where near equivalent.

Why not?

Note that I personally don't think "equivalent" is even a useful category to consider here: the methods of voter suppression are different enough that comparing them in any meaningful way is a serious research project at best. But apparently people keep feeling like we can place an agreed-on linear ordering of some sort on the horribleness of political party behavior. For people who think that, I would like to know why they think that and why they think that their particular ordering is the "right" one.

My preferred outcome, obviously, would be if people made decisions about this stuff in terms of actual reasons other than "it's better for my chosen party". At least then there would be a basis for discussion and perhaps a possibility to change minds... I'm not holding my breath.

I'm not sure there is a mainstream American right. There are several threads that appear to have incompatible ideas. Then the politicians try to give lip-service to all of them, which makes it impossible to actually deliver on any of their promises without pissing off the rest of their supporters.

I think there did used to be a main-stream of conservative thought, from Buckley through Reagan. But they are just one of the threads, now.

This was inevitable. For a long time, they could win elections by catering to the strong, white, male breadwinner and those in his orbit. One identity. One politics.

The left, in contrast, has been working on a kind of "big tent" politics for a long time, packaging reproductive rights (women) with immigration reform (hispanics) and welfare (low income blacks). Each of these stances required the right to come out hard against these things, alienating women and minorities. That necessitated more inflammatory politics to rile up the white male base: the immigrants are taking your jobs, welfare queens are taking your tax money, feminists are destroying your livelihoods, etc... ideas which seem plausible and scary at first but upon investigation are not actually causing the problems they purport to be. Immigrants are growing the economy, welfare queens are mostly white and not nearly expensive as aircraft carriers and old people, and feminists are still largely shouting in the wind.

But the demographics just aren't in their favor. To me, the turn to nationalism is an act of desperation. In the face of "the party of Everyone" they had to go hard into the fear-based "Them is taking over, and they're against you" message. It worked in 2016, but I don't see it carrying the decade.

But regardless, we're past the time where there is a single conservative ideology that can garner 50% of the vote. It's a big tent on both sides now. It's "The party of Everyone" vs "The party of Jobs, I mean small government, I mean Tax Cuts, I mean Deficit Spending, I mean The Military, I mean... God! Yeah, The party of God. And putting Hillary in jail."

Personally, I have drunk the "we live in a time of plenty" Kool-aid, so I think the Republicans will fail. But we'll see. They're doing their darndest to destroy the environment, and cause a resource crunch which would the necessitate the violence and protectionism they seem to enjoy.

As opposed to right wing emphasis on military action, enforcing Christian morality though the power of government, and removing any restrictions from powerful corporations.

If you really believe what you're saying, then be a libertarian, not some far rightist.

Also, alt-right is all about identity politics. That would be the white power thingee.

"Even the furthest of the alt-right take their goal as the exact opposite: to break the control of the "cathedral" of left-globalist interests, who are embodied in the now-unified elites of academia, entertainment, high finance, big tech, wealthy industrialists, Democrats, journalists and media, and the unelected deep state."

Yet the alt-right and pretty much all right wing political ideologies require all to conform to its social values or else; especially on matters of bodily autonomy (LGBT issues, abortion, contraceptive use, plastic surgery, drug use, etc) the right wing of politics fears any freedom to choose. So, I'm not buying your thesis that the right wing wants to leave folks like me (transgender for example) alone.

"On the other hand, leftists - like the people who laud Atwood's book in your way - always want concentration of power because they're utopians who think that all you need to make a great society is more control given to the correct, enlightened technocrats (who always happen to be people resembling themselves in values, outlook, and opinions)."

I think you're confusing what passes for left wing politics in the US and Europe as historically left wing politics. For example, I don't think any legitimate leftist would support concentrations of power in the hands of managers considering the failure of the USSR and even several conglomerates in the West (GM comes to mind here). Tyranny of the managers is still tyranny even to a democratic socialist or to a mutualist (such as myself). So, I don't see where your POV even holds water when there's a plethora of contrary theories by leftist philosophers and political commentators on these matters. I think you need to expand your analysis beyond DailyKos vs National Review when it comes to politics.

Do you ever take a step back and wonder how such a long list of: "academia, entertainment, high finance, big tech, wealthy industrialists, Democrats, journalists and media, and the unelected deep state" could possibly be unified?

Sure, they are all pursuing a globalization agenda.

I have no personal feelings on it, but it seems a growing portion of people in america- trump, england- brexit, and now france - marine are opposing it.

> pursuing a globalization agenda

What does this actually mean?

Is there anyone in politics who doesn't have an "agenda" in some sense - what would that even look like, a promise to be purely reactive without having any long term policy?

Thats good point. I'm guessing from the examples I've seen.

People don't want global bureaucracy like the EU.

They don't want other nations or other people put before their own country and national interests.

They also don't want foreign meddling in their own countries, whether its through lobbying groups, foreign money or just foreign funded media.

If I had to guess, people are feeling a loss of control of their local geographical areas and lives within it, and reacting any way they can to reassert power/control. In america, you can see it from Trump, and Bernie, to things like the Texas and California Exit.

Some people don't want that. It's not like Brexit or Trump aren't controversial. Other people realize they are part of an increasingly interrelated world. Kind of hard not to be with modern technology. We can easily communicate with anyone, travel anywhere, and stuff is made all over the place.

A globalization agenda has existed since nations have been trading, signing treaties, and going to war with one another. We live on the same planet and technology makes us even closer together. The only isolated communities left live deep in the rainforest.

>because the next reaction will be much much worse.

What does this mean?

He means the next right-wing backlash (so Trump-->Democrats return to power-->next reaction). The term was used in the French revolution to describe conservative reactions against revolution. The most famous would be the Thermidorian Reaction, which saw the fall of Robespierre and the Jacobin faction generally.

So the right wing backlash after Trump will look the Handmaid's Tale because the liberals went too far.

"Now look what you made me do."

It's almost as if fascism is some grotesque caricature of traditional masculinity mapped onto governance.

But it's NOT authoritarian and DEFINITELY in favor of dismantling centralized power. Got it.

The threat of liberalism boogeyman is something made up by Fox News and right wing radio.