Uber's head of communications is leaving the company
techcrunch.com
techcrunch.com
"This is one of those times when steering into the skid might have been the wrong move."
"I think Uber needs to post an ad for a new President more than a Senior Software Engineer..."
"How about UberEatsDicks? Can we work on that product together? It sounds pretty good for you guys. Right up your alley."
"Facebook must hate me to suggest this post. LOL"
"Haha, no thanks. http://www.theverge.com/.../14664474/uber-sexism-allegations ."
The cynical part of me suspects this will enable monocultures and discrimination.
Just doesn't make sense.
Not me, or most people here.
Yet Google and Facebook are things.
I have some concerns about the effect they have on diversity (given how tightly you can target them). But the results seems to be really good.
I'm very curious who these developers are that (1) let Facebook show them ads and (2) god forbid, actually click on them
That's the only time I ever browse without adblock and, yes, I have actually clicked on a hiring ad, which led to my current job.
IE, They mostly screwed over corrupt taxi monopolies.
Similar to a sort of Tony Stark character, Uber was an asshole, but they were OUR asshole. Fighting for insanely low customer prices and fighting against a bigger enemy, which is the terrible existing taxi industry.
The stuff that has happened recently is about having an awful company/engineering culture, and isn't in any way morally defensible.
In other words, they played us like fiddles.
Started for me when they updated the app to ask for location information 100% of the time a few months back. I remember seeing the notification and thinking to myself "do I really trust Uber with all my location data?" and realizing the answer was no. They made the app much more frustrating to use if you didn't provide that level of location so I deleted it shortly after.
You seem to suggest that Uber's toxic culture gave them a business advantage. Like, riders got some benefit that a conscientious person ought to have guessed was derived from the suffering of others.
I think what really happened is that Uber successfully assailed a bunch of stodgy monopolies just by taking a modern approach to dispatching. Then others saw the opportunity and there was a goldrush. Today Uber and everyone else are squeezing the drivers (same is true for all the "Uber of X" sharing economy variants). But the crappy backoffice culture surely didn't make it more convenient or cheap to get a ride.
It did. Unethical miserable people broke laws and cleaned up. And people loved them for it. Until they didn't.
--
[0] - I really, really don't get why people only started caring after information about back-office sexism came to light, like if this was the worst thing Uber is doing; it isn't even remotely.
I do think it's stupid we had and continue to have laws that say it's illegal to offer someone a paid ride if you notice that they need one with your own senses ("hailing"), as opposed to via a phone call or app notification.
Maybe many people share this view, and that solves the mystery: people haven't only started caring recently about the local regulations; they started caring about the completely different issues that only recently came to light: backoffice culture problems, reckless administration of the self-driving car project, worsening conditions for unskilled freelancers generally, etc. That explains how it could be that suddenly lots more people are averse to Uber, and yet no more people care about taxi businesses or their legal moats than before.
Any revolutionary, disruptor or change agent will be perceived as an asshole. They're looking at the state of things, saying that doesn't do, and then launching into the machinations necessary to replace it. Rooting for "your asshole" is perfectly rational.
What matters is the drivers.
And as soon as rates go up on Uber, people can switch to something else.
All you need is a car and a taxi medallion(the price for which has gone into the ground) , and you too can compete with Uber if they raise prices.
[1] http://www.businessinsider.com/ubers-revenue-profit-and-loss...
People were saying the same thing 5 years ago, but I've still got my 5$ taxi rides.
I am not particularly worried that Uber could raises prices on me.... 20 years from now.
I hope not.. that's not progress!!!
Disruption is all fun and games when it stays within business context. When all you play with are abstract spending points on your bank account. When you breach that, when you start to disrupt law and social order, that pretty much always end in tears and blood for many, many people. You don't do that unless you're very, very careful or the goal is extremely important. You definitely don't root for assholes who don't give a flying fuck about society, and want to mess things up only to line up their pockets.
Uber is literally behaving like evil megacorp since almost day one. Why people would root for that is something I can't really comprehend. You don't cheer the plunderers that came to the village just because they just slaughtered the neighbour you didn't particularly like - because when they're done with him, they'll come for you.
Some folks may hate them because of Susan Fowler, but that doesn't change the fact that they've drastically improved the world for consumers.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/10/uber-ly...
And that makes racism more acceptable?
Also I guess you are not familiar with The Atlantic.
It is a 160 year old institution, it is very well-respected. Past writers include Ralph Waldo Emerson, Oliver Wendell Holmes and Harriet Beacher Stowe. It does not trade in Clickbait.
The rest of your comment is basically the "argument from authority" logical fallacy.
An article being a "dud" is highly subjective, even if you yourself haven't found an article to be a worthwhile read does not qualify qualify an article as "clickbait".
There is nothing sensational in the article, it is simply discussing findings in a study.
The Atlantic has actually fared pretty well:
[1] "The Atlantic saw the highest increase in circulation, expanding slightly by 2% in 2015."
http://www.journalism.org/2016/06/15/news-magazines-fact-she...
This 2016 is the most recent data available.
I haven't. I'm simply pointing out that their venerability doesn't guarantee that everything they put out is of the highest caliber. The bevy of think (or whine) pieces it has published about millennials and safe spaces speaks to that, I feel.
>There is nothing sensational in the article, it is simply discussing findings in a study.
Which is sufficient as a rebuttal to the claim that it is clickbait.
For reference on the logical fallacies used in your comment, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy.
Racism isn't like homeopathy, where any quantity at all has the same effect. More is worse, less is better.
In that study, the median black taxi rider is passed by 2 taxis before being picked up, vs 0 for the median white (see fig A.6). The difference for Uber is not remotely as large.
When I just opened up the Atlantic now, it showed me ads -- err, "content" -- from Revcontent, which is some of the worst clickbait on the Internet.
In a taxi you can rip off a firangi or fail to pick up a black passenger at your leisure. With Uber, this will cause your ratings to drop below 4.3, or your acceptance rate/cancellation rate to drop below/above whatever threshold they use. Then you get kicked off the platform.
Uber is providing the necessary regulation of the system that governments fail to provide.
While I'll agree that Uber used to provide a higher quality experience (nicer cars etc), this is no longer the case. The rating system is also broken-eg it now offers too much power to drunk customers. Uber now operates only to benefit itself-not its customers, not the drivers and certainly not the public. Perhaps you'd prefer to be regulated by the whims of a corporation & their pursuit of profit extraction rather than the democratic legitimacy of government, but thankfully, most of us would not. Hence, even if its taken some time for local & national governments to get up to speed, Uber is being banned, taxed, and forced to abide by the public & workplace safety rules every other company must follow.
On the contrary, most of us would prefer this. That's why yellow cabs are losing market share everywhere that men with guns don't take away their right to choose.
Initially, Uber set itself out as the hero of the day, riding on a shining horse to fight the Evil Taxi Mafia. Anyone who looked closely at how they did that could easily predict that what they want to become is the new, but worse, Taxi Mafia. They've been assholes almost from the start, they continue to be assholes now. That so many people only got angry after sexism accusations, of all the things, only makes me sad about the state of humanity.
As a consumer, what exactly should I be angry about?
As a responsible citizen of a civilized society however, one should be interested in how such a service comes to be, and what it means to people involved and the society at large.
--
BTW. I'm founding a biotech startup now; we provide personalized medication for free, OTC, ordered through our mobile app. We can do that because of our innovative manufacturing model, which involves doing BSL-4 level work with pathogens in our garage. I.e. we're disrupting the corrupt dinosaur regulations to provide a cheaper and better service.
But a quick succession of PR disasters has made the narrative difficult to control:
November 28, TechCrunch: Uber begins background collection of rider location data [1]
December 1, NPR: Uber Now Tracks Passengers' Locations Even After They're Dropped Off [2]
December 14, TechCrunch: Uber's self-driving cars start picking up passengers in San Francisco [3]
December 14, Video: Driverless Uber runs red light in downtown San Francisco [4]
December 14, TheHill: Trump Names Elon Musk, Uber CEO to Advisory Team [5]
December 16, The Verge: Uber is stubbornly refusing to apply for a $150 permit for its self-driving cars [6]
December 21: ReCode: Uber has stopped its self-driving pilot in SF after the DMV revoked its cars' registrations [7]
January 30, TechCrunch: Lyft surges to the top 10 on Apple's App Store following the #DeleteUber campaign [8]
February 19, Susan J. Fowler: Reflecting On One Very, Very Strange Year At Uber [9]
February 19, The New York Times: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee [10]
February 23, Bloomberg: Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets [11]
February 24, "Amy Vertino": I am an Uber survivor [12]
March 3, The New York Times: How Uber Used Secret "Greyball" Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide [13]
Specifically, the #deleteUber affair stemmed from a series of misunderstandings, but generated more public ire than most of Uber's unambiguously overt actions. This widespread public upset made further revelations about Uber's culture more repulsive, even if they were upsetting enough in their own right. This also makes it easier to pile on less consequential pieces of bad press, like the few we've had in recent weeks about other high-ranking executives leaving for unrelated reasons.
[1] https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/28/uber-background-location-d... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13085098 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13175531 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13180172 [5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13175928 [6] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13198277 [7] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13234265 [8] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13527482 [9] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13682022 [10] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13684439 [11] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13718586 [12] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13747414 [13] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13785564
But the term Overton Window isn't a good fit for what you're describing here
This is what happens without worker solidarity.
1. Taxis would not come outside of the city core to pick you up. Or if you booked a ride they would find a more convenient fare, take that and never show
2. The card machine was always "broken" and they would insist on cash, maybe make you go to an ATM
3. They would drive people on poor routes to drive up fares. Especially foreigners. I had this tried on me.
4. They wouldn't take you to destinations they didn't want to go to. Try getting out to Yerba Buena Island (I used to live there)
I'm generally for worker solidarity, and in fact I wish we had more of it in software engineering, but do I feel bad for the taxi drivers in SF? No, they had it coming.
Unfortunately startups try to cut down prices and screw the providers (see Spotify, Uber, Netflix which clearly aren't expensive enough), but the simple new way of offering a service is already a revolution. Booking a taxi by credit card and without negociating, paying for PopcornTime service, etc.
Yes Uber is a game changer but they are not here to serve us, they are here to take over the taxi industry globally and make billions out of it (you need to spend money to make money).
Living in NYC, I've been asking friends and friends of friends (it makes for good social fodder) about whether or not they plan to change and I have yet to hear anyone who actually cares and has changed their behavior (ie shifted to cabs or lyft). Not a statistically significant sample size but NYC is as liberal as it gets when it comes to issues like these.
Also, anecdotally, I can say that in my group of friends a lot of people have switched.
Honest hypothetical situation: Let's assume for a moment the answer is no (maybe it is, maybe it isn't) would you honestly stay with Lyft long term knowing you would make less? This is the key question really...
implies that he was somehow being unjustly rude to someone just because he is an asshole. They had a heated discussion. That is all.
>You know what. Some people don’t like to take responsibility for their own shit. They blame everything in their life on someone else. Good luck!
The worst part about that situation is that the driver made an excellent point: "You have the business model in your hands, but you chose to buy everybody a free ride!"
We're giving people credit for a minimum of human decency now? I'm worried that we're edging back toward the feudal system. You're talking about relations between serfs and their liege lords here, not between people in a free society.
Immediately I try to cancel my Uber account. Nope your locked in there is no cancel button. Have to wait days to cancel. Uber knows about this hack and their response is it's the customers fault for not using an uber strong password. Then my best friend leases a car from Uber and in the long run he finds out he has leased his car from what it feels like the mafia.. except it's the Uber mafia.
Burn Uber burn.. I will never use your filth again!
Hmm, unless waiting till later makes them feel like they can't afford the legal battle and leads to an easier settlement? Gonna have to brush up on my corporate extortion
I've asked my lyft drivers in san francisco if they've noticed any difference in ridership lately (they almost all drive for both uber and lyft), and heard things like 'yeah, all the women are taking lyft now.'
Is it really as dramatic as all that? Just seems like ragging on uber is 'a viral topic' right now. Likely thanks to the couple of articles this past while that've no doubt made the rounds on FB/etc.
Once it's "old hat" people will go back to business as usual, albeit uber's steadily increasing prices and myriad other issues mean people'll always have that negative aftertaste (and possibly switch to other services or cutting back on ridesharing for a while)
Waves of hate for companies are nothing new; not saying Uber's not going to have enduring hate too but I don't think this is anything "different" than what I'd've expected. Just look at United right now.
Why Uber is still alive is something that makes me worry about what chances the rule of law has vs. VC money.
https://www.recode.net/2017/4/11/15265176/uber-communication...
It's linked to within the TC articles...
It looks to me that people are piling on, just because.
Other than the fact that corporate HR "investigated" the literal screenshots of Susan being sexually propositioned by her supervisor the day she joined the company and determined there was nothing wrong, right? I sure fucking hope that skews form the mean when it comes to harassment.
Your words are chosen so carefully. "Anecdotal...looked credible..." The same words I'm sure HR had in their oops-we-got-caught presentation for Travis.
If they look carefully chosen it's because I'm trying to keep an objective perspective on this. Susan's account looks credible, and as far as I can tell Uber messed up, but how do you extrapolate that to a systemic problem?
This whole thing looks like a typical internet pile-up. Uber screwed up in a specific instance, and now everybody wants to take a free hit.
>I sure fucking hope that skews form the mean when it comes to harassment.
Well does it? Out of the countless shrill blog posts and news articles on this, did anybody investigate if this is really a systemic problem at Uber?
The metrics I'd like to look at would be harassment complaints, harassment claims on anonymous survey for witnessing, being a victim of, or participating in harassing behavior, and reports from HR outlining frequency of complaints and the results of those complaints.
If you could compare these metrics to industry standards I think you could make a credible case one way or the other. Eg Uber employees report harassment more frequently on anonymous surveys than to HR. This suggests Uber culture does not sufficiently encourage reporting harassment. Or, uber HR rejects sexual harassment claims more frequently than similar companies, suggesting they have problems investigating such complaints, etc.
I also found the story of sexual harassment at uber believable and outrageous, but that doesn't mean it's a systemic problem.
What kind of world do you live in? Because the real world doesn't provide you any of these metrics or statistics so you will very likely never see this kind of "proof" coming out from any workplace that's been accused of not fighting against sexual harassment.
Science is beautiful but there are places where you can't gather the data to do it, this is probably one of these cases.
How about more evidence than the anecdotal experience of one person. Like I said - she seems credible, but it is only one side of the story and one singular instance.
>Science is beautiful but there are places where you can't gather the data to do it, this is probably one of these cases.
So the alternative is you just make up your own conclusion?
And whose job to investigate that would it be? I don't think you understand how public opinion works.
It's not exactly reliant on (nor has it any designated 'investigators' for) that sort of thing. It just does what it will
Not mine. What's your point?
>I don't think you understand how public opinion works.
I know how internet mobs work.
From Susan Fowlers' article:
>When I joined Uber, the organization I was part of was over 25% women. By the time I was trying to transfer to another eng organization, this number had dropped down to less than 6%. Women were transferring out of the organization, and those who couldn't transfer were quitting or preparing to quit.
Sounds kinda systemic.
My problem with conspiracy theories is that they always take the following form:
1) Event X occurred.
2) I can't imagine how X could have happened other than if Y is true.
3) Therefore Y is true.
Here's how it looks like with UFOs:
1) I saw a streak of light travelling very quickly across the night sky.
2) I cannot imagine what terrestrial phenomenon could have caused it.
3) Therefore Aliens.
I don't know why the proportion of women in that specific organization fell. Was it because sexism or sexual harassment caused them to quit? Was it because of differential hiring, where over a period of time more men were hired? Was it because more women got promoted out of the 'organization'? Was it just a statistical glitch? I don't even know what an 'organization' is in that context.
Let's be clear on what a systemic problem is. The organization has many levels of controls, with employees in different departments to independently ensure that as the organization functions and moves forward, it is doing so in the right way. In this case, the HR, the Line Managers and others have individual responsibilities to ensure that sexual harassment is not tolerated. But each of these controls failed. Worse, it seems like they collaborated to undermine this. This is a systemic problem, as many parts of the system are functioning incorrectly. Now, is this a frequent problem or one off? Usually, systemic problems are frequent as there is reason to believe these controls will be violated / broken again.
And at the end of it all, you're still just using a sample of one to justify a conclusion. Not only a sample one, but biased sample of one giving one side of the story. Again, she seems very credible, but because you weren't there, and you don't know the full-story you really have to refrain from asserting strong conclusions.
What is happening here looks like typical behaviour of an internet mob on a righteous crusade and it makes me uncomfortable, because I've seen this countless times. Inevitably real people end up getting hurt because you want to virtue signal to others and take some cheap shots..
Untrue. There are many, many accounts from current and former employees that say it is pervasive. That is far from "nothing."
Those who loathe Uber can only wish to witness Kalanick learn humility by holding only the ashes of Uber he ignited and then burned!
Human nature!
.edit: down-vote city for calling HNers human? Or what? Just curious. Don't really care about the points.
.edit²: removed a bit of the blanket from that statement. Pardon the initial poor wording!
Of course, maybe there's a lot of interest because of seemingly irrationality of management in handling this situation?
[1] http://fortune.com/2017/04/10/wells-fargo-clawback-stumpf-to...
"Tolstedt, on the other hand, is losing 54% of the $125 million pay package she was originally entitled to when she retired."
How savage! Cutting Tolstedt's pay to several tens of millions of dollars.
Regardless, this sounds like quitting rather than being fired.
Alphabet wants its lawsuit against Uber to play out publicly
https://www.recode.net/2017/4/11/15254028/alphabet-oppositio...
Between Google investing $258M in Uber and then getting their IP ripped off by an ex-employee (now at Uber) whose company Google had bought, Levandowski and Uber pissed off the wrong deep pocketed company.
Wait, so... They're implying that Levandowski didn't violate his agreement, but that Uber is liable for using trade secrets...?
Unless those files were marked as theirs (which you'd think Levandowski would have scrubbed if he made them part of Otto's docs), I can't see how that'd be a winning strategy for them. hmm
Disclaimer: I don't know anything about the case and am not a lawyer
(Yes, I have all kinds of college and good grades and yadda. This word is a tad obscure.)
Recently, they started spamming me with lots of %-off offers[1]. Just a datapoint; it could be unrelated marketing efforts. Or it could be that they're feeling it.
[1] Their mailing list was also broken and ignored my unsubscribe request, so given that they seem too incompetent to run a mail server, now anything they send me bounces.
Personally, I've had the "how do you like Uber/lyft" conversation during a ride enough times to never bring it up directly, but regardless it comes up frequently.
I don't think drivers are looking to badmouth the company, but drivers everywhere in the world are at least slightly aware of what's going on and often in need of a shared subject to talk about with passengers.
I'm in the middle of a two week trip in San Francisco staying with people who live here. Out of about a dozen people who've called rides for themselves or the group while I've been around, 100% were Lyft. Out of all the ridesharing vehicles I've seen in the city, less than one in five had Uber logos, and maybe less than one in ten. No drivers we talked to complained about Uber, some were even very complimentary, but I get the feeling the tide has completely turned in the Bay Area and there's no home field advantage at home.
And FWIW, everyone I know is aware of the Uber issue, while almost none read Hacker News. This story is definitely not primarily fueled by HN at this point, if it ever was.
But, I definitely think the execution could've been a lot better. Sure, be aggressive with pricing, influencing public policy and marketing but to persist with it and taking it beyond subtlety is a silly, distracting move. By going the other extreme in curbing monopolies, they have alienated hard-working drivers who are feeling the heat now. Drivers tell me they work longer hours for lower payouts. Many of them are unable to make enough to pay back loans taken out to purchase their cars.
I'm not sure if this was due to demands imposed by investors on aggressive expansion and growth or if it's something that Uber consciously chose to do. Either way, I fear the worst and that this will be an another short-lived experiment.
Even United CEO apologized, but sexual harassment is no biggie I guess for Uber.
Good luck Uber.
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/10/united-ceo-passenger-disrupti...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/united-airlines-ceo-apol...
2. It is, indeed, hard to judge without having established the facts. But resisting a captain's (or, by extension, flight crew's) order, or the orders of the owner of the airplane, is in itself illegal and, frankly, immature. Running onto the plane again after having been "dragged off" and muttering "Just kill me" seems to point to possible mental issues, but again, it's hard to tell without further information.
More measured pieces, such as this one [1], state "It appears from the evidence that the law was broken – by him, not by the airline."
[1] http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/united-a...
You realize this could be because of the concussion he might have suffered earlier, don't you? Rather cruel thing to throw out there as an accusation after reviewing the video of the incident.
What's your legal recourse? None.
Sometimes it's not the same sensible, legal and right.
They have some criteria to exclude people from the bad lottery (disabled people and their care takers, unaccompanied minors), and then may apply a ranking based on booking class, frequent flyer status, and check-in time.
But here, the claim is that pax were chosen randomly.
Many people have good reasons to be on a plane, and this passenger being a doctor should not have any bearing on the resolution of the problem at hand (except insofar as it should've compelled other pax to take the 800 USD and hotel room and volunteer for disembarkation).
And we're entitled to roast them for doing so when we think they've done wrong.
Even if most of us think our needs (/convenience) is more important than everyone else, most of us also appreciate the role that doctors & nurses play.
Plus, airlines have rules about literally everything-including wearing leggings. From both a business and a public safety perspective, it would hardly be shocking if an airline mandated that doctors and nurses should be either exempt from removal or the last to be removed. Not sure if you've ever been on a plane where someone has had a serious medical issue when there hasn't been a doctor or nurse on board, but its hardly uncommon. Having a doctor on board decreases risk for an airline--keeping doctors & nurses aboard certainly makes more senses than random choice does or choosing whomever paid the least.
So rather than us armchair quarterbacking it, why not let more of the facts solidify before passing judgement?
PS. I'm not sure if I would say that the article you linked to counts as "measured". Here's a different article (comes with citation of United's Contract of Carriage): https://thefederalist.com/2017/04/11/did-united-airlines-vio...
In my view, the Independent article gives the "received wisdom", while the article you linked is from a (self-professed) non-expert reading the conditions of carriage and doing some hairsplitting there.
Edit: Independent, not Telegraph
From what I can tell, The Independent article was not sourced from an expert either so your attempt to show that the Independent article has more "weight" does not back things up.
Here's an article quoting an aviation attorney: http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/stu_bykofsky/United-...
"Under certain conditions, airlines can bar passengers from boarding - if the passenger is unruly or intoxicated or on a terrorist watch list - but United had no right to remove Dao, says aviation law expert Arthur Wolk, a Center City attorney who read the 45-page “contract of carriage.”
Wolk says Dao “absolutely” had the right to the seat, and this was not a case of “overbooking,” he says, because all the passengers had seats. What happened to Dao was “assault and battery,” he says.
“There’s absolutely no humanity left in the airline business,” Wolk says, adding that United routinely finishes low in surveys of passenger satisfaction. “I would sue their asses off.”
Is there any question that Dao is going to sue? John Banzhaf, a professor at the George Washington University Law School, agrees with Wolk’s analysis. He says United is “citing the wrong federal rule to justify its illegal request to force a passenger already boarded and seated to disembark.”"
Regardless of the outcome, I would hope that people will agree that injury in a case like this is not deserved and not just "too bad, he didn't behave himself".Let me cite another source though, Bloomberg, which, again, echoes the received wisdom as far as I can tell:
1. Can airlines just throw seated passengers off planes?
Yes. When you purchase an airline ticket you’re also entering into a detailed contract that specifies the many rights an airline has related to the trip. One of them allows the carrier to seize your seat in return for compensation and an alternate means of transport, usually on a later flight. Airlines also can determine that when their employees must be somewhere for duty -- a status that, yes, may place them ahead of paying customers -- a passenger’s seat can be taken. That’s because not positioning a crew member can lead to a future flight cancellation or delay.
> Thatcher Stone, a lawyer who has successfully sued airlines over bumping incidents, advises that passengers should always follow instructions of airline crew, no matter how strongly they may feel.
Agreed that injury was not deserved, but what do you suggest should be done if people don't follow a lawful order to vacate the premises?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-11/can-airli...
While I won't dispute that the moment he refused to deplane, he violated the law (you're required to follow the instructions of flight crew), the request that he be removed was also a violation of UA policy from what I've seen.
Here's some things that I've read
- He had previously volunteered to deboard, until he learned that it would be such a long delay
- This was not a case of overbooking, the 4 people added to the flight were United Employees, not overbooked passengers.
- UA policy states that airline employees will be the first people bumped from a flight in the case that it is overbooked
- (According to someone on reddit, so extra salt:) All of the overbooking regulations have to do with seat assignments. You shouldn't get bumped once you're assigned a seat, much less seated, and doing so may be a breach of regulations by United.
If that's the case, then the crew were absolutely breaching UA policy when he was removed, and they may have been breaching federal regulations when they asked him to deplane. To be clear, that's no excuse for refusing to deplane (even if he knew he was in the right), but it's not as simple as "he was disruptive" if the request for him to leave was illegal.
As for the 4 employees - there is staff travel for personal reasons (ID travel, interline discount, heavily discounted, stand-by), where you have lower priority than paying pax. There is booked staff travel, where you have intermediate priority. But then there is travel for operational reasons (positioning), where you have higher priority, because if you don't get there, a whole planeload of pax (and more, due to knock-on effects) won't fly. So, the number of available seats was reduced, and insofar it was overbooking.
And certainly all this should have been sorted out before boarding, no doubt, and normally is. (Apparently only 6 in 100,000 pax or so are IDB, by the way.)
But imagine a seatbelt turns out to be broken, or the wind is so strong that they have to load more fuel and reduce weight, or whatever. Then there's a seat less, for operational reasons, and someone has to leave, even if they had boarded already.
If a plane has X seats, but the carrier has assigned X+4 bums for those seats, then it's a case of overbooking.
And I don't see how you can wave away the incident just by claiming the actions were justified because of aviation law or how United runs.
(That in itself is some immaturity. I'm all for political action and power to the citizen and consumers and so forth, but I don't fight that fight while in some country's immigration and customs queue, or with the crew of an aircraft while in the aircraft.)
legal != right
Most people would not defy authority, but that doesn't mean that authority is in the right. Whether or not United technically acted in accordance with the law does also does not mean they are in the right. Where and when you personally would (or would not) choose to defy authority is also not a reliable barometer of whether that authority is worthy of defiance.
This was a logistical problem that resulted from United's own negligence. The personality traits that the passenger displayed after being lottery-selected for ejection are immaterial : the airline screwed up, the airline treated its customers like shit, the airline refused to provide suitable incentives, the airline refused to address the problem in a reasonable manner, and finally the airline went straight for the nuclear option. It was a colossal failure from start to finish, and the fault lies entirely with them.
There is the question as to when something counts as an aviation accident (because you do not want something to count as an aviation accident when the cockpit window cleaner falls of the ladder, but you do want to count something as an aviation accident when, say, something happens during taxi - even if you're not flying yet. But where do you draw the line?)
So, ICAO defines an accident to be "An occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight until such time as all such persons have disembarked" and fulfilling various further criteria.
So, according to that definition the airplane was "in operation".
If customers can no longer trust you to treat them with even the lowest degree of respect (and bodily integrity, already a sore point with air travelers is undeniably a part of that) then you're in trouble.
Witness the stock markets response today, no amount of legal wrangling will make that kind of beating right, besides the obvious ethical angles.
UA failed, then failed again during their initial apology and now may be able to put this behind them but it will be a very costly lesson.
2. Companies (or any entity, really) should resist attempts to circumvent rules by cheating, e.g. by throwing a tantrum at the check-in counter when you don't get an upgrade. So, when the Involuntary Denied Boarding lottery comes up, and you don't get a seat, do you think it would be ok to force your way onto the plane and refuse to get off, in the hope that they might chose someone else? If not, how would you deal with such a case?
2 is incorrect. The people were already on the plane, it was not overbooked (but booked to capacity) and the people replacing the paying passengers were deadheading crew.
So there was absolutely no 'cheating' on the part of the passengers but plenty on the side of the airline, starting with claiming they were overbooked which they really weren't.
The 'cheating' is in refusing to disembark.
Having the right to do something does not automatically translate into always being right to exercise that right, especially given the bigger picture. Even the CEO of United Airlines seems to disagree with you now. Also: first offering $800 and if refused categorically, then deciding to exercise your right to initiate a lottery to find 'volunteers' is dumb, either you have the right and exercise it or you hold an impromptu auction but to first offer a bit of money (usually in $50 vouchers each of which is valid as a discount on a single future flight and which can't be combined) and if that doesn't work to resort to violence is not going to go down well.
Given the ways in which this could have played out (I don't think it is a stretch to imagine that other passengers could have come to the defense of the old man) they got lucky.
The fact that the passenger had to be dragged out was due to the passenger, though.