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Comment by nitam | Hacker News Reader

You can help us help you by a) becoming available in more countries b) Atlas LLC

With that LLC thought, does that still mean US based?

Atlas sounded interesting to me (doing product dev atm), however it's based on incorporating in the US.

The US seems like it's gone in a seriously bad direction for non-US citizens (I'm Australian, living in the UK), with no positive end to that in sight. So incorporation in the US isn't really a goer (personally speaking).

Isn't UK incorporating a breeze? I'm sure I heard it can be all done online.

Yep. For the most basic setup, it takes 5-10 mins and costs around £5

From my experience you can do everything online + post, except for the bank account. However the reality might have changed in the 3 years which have elapsed. There might be some new bank that lets you get away with it online.

However, the UK is moving in a strange direction as well. For a decent EU option, look at Estonia. Get a digital ID card from one of their embassies and you can use that with your computer to open a company and manage everything digitally.

>There might be some new bank that lets you get away with it online.

Yep, https://www.tide.co (even MetroBank which I used was all online and only took a few days.

Yeah, that was an option until Brexit happened.

My co-conspirator :) is based in Germany, so setting something up there might be the better idea.

Haven't researched that at all (yet), as we're still focused on getting the foundational tech working decently first (progressing fairly well, it's mostly grunt work).

But, keeping an eye open meanwhile... :)

Hi, we have setup our company (UG) https://cloudron.io a bit over a year ago in Germany and used https://www.firma.de which was a breeze. They do all the heavy lifting preparing documents. Then you just have to show up physically at the bank and notary office to sign on the dates firma.de is telling you.

Thanks, I'll check them out when we're at the stage of investigating the right place to setup. :)

Unless you understand the tax consequences, incorporating in the US should be avoided at all costs.

Why? LLCs are pass-through entities. US residents will get taxed as income, and non-US residents will not have to pay any tax if their income is not effectively connected with a US trade or business (which basically means that employees do not do any of the work within the US).

Different countries have different laws. What might be seen as "pass through" under US law can sometimes be seen as opaque in an EU country, for example. Sometimes the situation or the double taxation treaty (if there is one) offers no clear solution.

Most western countries also have CFC laws you need to be aware of. CFC laws are essentially "see through" taxation laws to combat tax avoidance, looking through certain corporate structures you would use to avoid tax, e.g. by somehow siphoning off money (legally, through IP payments, interest payments, etc) to a zero or low tax entity somewhere.

I've had some tax disputes before and I can tell you: most of these civil servants are unaware of the international context they're operating in. They mainly audit local restaurants, bookstores, etc. Nothing "exotic". Talking to them, before you meet with some people higher up, can literally be a crapshoot. Some countries, for example, might try to tax your US LLC income as dividend income, before applying corporate (or personal income) tax to it again.

This is obviously often incorrect, but given most people set up US entities because they're cheap / etc (or at least some of the people using Atlas do), you should be aware that a dispute with your local tax authority can follow. Because they are the ones losing current and future revenue. Those can have nasty consequences if you don't have the funds available to hire, say, a good tax lawyer.

That said, totally agree Atlas (or setting up a US LLC) can be super valuable. Just make sure your tax situation is looked at, at home.

>This is obviously often incorrect, but given most people set up US entities because they're cheap

Cheap compared to where? EU or UK?

Most EU jurisdictions have required minimum capital contributions from the founding shareholder(s), e.g. 10-20.000 euro per entity. Then there's a ton of stuff to file (some countries are more bureaucratic than others), in some jurisdictions you need to visit a civil law notary to incorporate, etc.

A lawyer can easily take care of that for you for a reasonable fee, but most bootstrappers won't consider it, given the price.

Interesting, thanks.

You may be interested in https://www.leapin.eu/ then. I'm not affiliated and can't give a personal recommendation yet as I've just been doing research. But it's basically Atlas, in the EU and with lower taxes. The big, major catch right now is that they only accept single-owner companies last time I looked, which will probably be an issue if you're partnered up with anyone.

Thanks, I'll look into them when we're closer to setting up the business side of things. :)

Agree about Atlas LLC: the best way to help "more companies get started and that they're more successful" is to help the companies at the margin -- the companies that won't actually get around to being formed if the prospective founder has to take 2 weeks out of his schedule just to figure out the legal and financial aspects of operating a side business. And for that type of company, an LLC is the no-brainer correct choice for the corporate structure.

Source: a prospective customer. :)

There is a lot of echo for your sentiment, and no reason for Atlas to not create an LLC package for customers (at some point), but are You (and so many others) really putting off a. Starting a business, or b. Creation of a business entity (LLC) for an on going business until Stripe can form it for you as a service? If so, what is it they provide that isn't available - and cheaper - elsewhere?

+1 Atlas LLC. Safe to say many of those featured on IndieHackers are also LLC.

This was brought up in the Stripe thread the other day. I'm sure both are on their radar.

+1 for Atlas LLC

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