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Comment by cube00 | Hacker News Reader

If they had just increased the compensation passengers would have voluntarily given up their seat, everyone has their price. It didn't even need to be money, free flights, upgrades, it costs them next to nothing, especially when you consider this is still running in the media days later. Everyone hates to hear they overbook flights so you'd think when they get bitten United would take some of the savings made overbooking and spend it when it doesn't work out. At the end of the day I have a sneaking suspicion they'll still be ahead.

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Apparently someone on the plane offered to give up their seat for $1600 and the manager laughed in their face.

Here's an account from someone who was actually on that plane: https://twitter.com/flsurfr/status/851556475013038080

Note that's $1,600 in United credits that expire.

That's how it always is right? It's always a voucher, not actual cash.

You are legally entitled to cash compensation but you specifically have to ask for it.

http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/04/11/what-are-y...

I had no idea, thanks for the information!

Note: I believe this only applies to involuntary bumps, not voluntary ones(when you take the offer).

If it is voluntary, then don't take the offer.

When it happened to me in London a few years ago I was offered a choice between X in vouchers or 0.7X in cash.

Exactly! United overbooked as an optimization for profits, fine. However, they should have to pay up when it backfires. They gave up at $800 and just started forcing people off. If it's free market when I'm buying my ticket, it should be free market for United buying it back.

It's even worse than that. They were disembarking passengers to make room for their own staff who were not even planned on this trip.

You understand their staff needed to be on this flight so that another plane full of passengers in Louisville wouldn't be delayed by not having a flight crew?

Oh well! Then sure!! Its time to start knocking customers out with your hired goons then./s

Everyone gets that. We're mad that United messed up the logistics of having staff in the right cities, and instead of treating their customers well they decided to use literal force to removed a customer with a confirmed seat who was already boarded.

They had better alternatives: other customers had offered to leave for higher voucher value, I'm sure they could have paid someone already in Louisville 4x overtime. Instead they chose force and intimidation.

At least they weren't on the fucking plane already. It was a next morning flight, plenty of time to wave off the customers affected by United's own fuckup. This is why we need to re-regulate the airlines.

> He is allegedly a doctor, not a demigod. Someone else can cover his shift. - You, elsewhere in this thread

So you're saying, unlike doctors, flight staff are demigods and must be given priority because they are irreplaceable?

(The funny thing is, I'm pretty sure United will view their flight crew more as cogs than demigods.)

It looks like it's not an overbooking at all, they just had employees showing up after the plane was full and united decided to kick some passenger out for them. But those employees were not paying nor were they planned to come on board before.

I believe this is capped at a maximum of $1300. From [1]:

    If it’s more than two hours (four hours for international
    flights), or if the airline does not offer alternate 
    flights, the compensation is 400 percent of your one-way 
    fare, with a $1300 maximum.

[1] http://www.cntraveler.com/stories/2014-09-04/bumped-due-to-o...

That's the cap on what they're legally required to offer. There's no law that says they can't exceed that to avoid a PR disaster.

That's a cap on what they're mandated by statute to give you as compensation. If for whatever reason your one way fare cost more than $325, then they don't have to pay you 4x that, just the cap.

It doesn't mean they can't offer you more.

Isn't that their legal obligation though? Certainly they could have offered more considering everyone was seated already, they had the crew for a future flight to transport on time, and everyone was initially unwilling.

I think it's the timing that made things so difficult for them. If they asked me at the gate I'd be willing to take $400 plus flight comps. If it's when I'm already seated on the plane though (and reports said the man taken off was seated and buckled in already), my price goes way up.

One would think that since the crew dropped the ball by pulling people this late they would offer more money to make those guys volunteer happily.

The video that was circulating online showed all the passengers seated and buckled up, and the one guy being forcibly ousted from his seat. So yeah...

It’s not capped, as in the company is not allowed to offer more. The company is welcome to compensate more if they think this will help the situation. If the passengers who have been selected object, they can claim that much before boarding. Whether vouchers count is very much an open debate, as airlines tend to price useless vouchers at random prices. I’m not familiar with any rules allowing to disembark a passenger after the plane has been declared fully boarded other than security.

It's 4x the price of the plane ticket, up to $1350 (the $1300 is indexed to inflation).[1]

Which explains why the crew offered $800 (it's a $200 ticket.)

BUT! Just because the the government caps the airline's liability does not mean the airline could not have offered more compensation to make it right. In fact given the unusual nature of the situation (flight was already fully boarded; the seats were needed for internal airline purposes, not other customers; the rule is for delays of 4 hours or more, while here the delay would have been close to 24 hours; the situation was escalating) they could have easily sweetened the deal further with an additional voucher or two, instead of calling the cops.

[1] https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2015/05/27/2015-12...

That's the cap for compensation of involuntarily removed passengers. There's no cap on how much airlines can offer for a voluntary bump.

From what I have read, if you volunteer to leave they can pay you in flight vouchers. The worth of these is lessened by the fact they would give you $300 as 6x $50 vouchers which cannot be used at the same time.

If they elect you to leave the flight they have to pay you in cold hard cash - 4x the ticket value or $1350 max (assuming you are delayed by more than 2 hours).

Never volunteer to leave a flight until they state how you will be paid.

In Europe the airlines are not allowed to pay you in vouchers.

Right. Airlines overbook because they make more money, and they are bound by laws like "If the substitute transportation is scheduled to get you to your destination more than two hours later (four hours internationally), or if the airline does not make any substitute travel arrangements for you, the compensation doubles (400% of your one-way fare, $1350 maximum)."

Thus, if expected revenue from overbooking > expected payouts, overbooking is worth it.

HOWEVER, the legal compensation required scales really weirdly - $1350 maximum for anything over a two hour delay? Why would being delayed three hours be equivalent to being delayed something like 12-18 hours? I'm also not sure that maximum number has scaled with inflation.

Anyway, some airlines already do auction off this. All airlines ask for volunteers because the compensation they offer is always less than the legal requirement for involuntary bumping.

This is just a mess because United had already let the passengers on the plane, and weren't even offering that maximum, much less over it. If somebody here actually knows contract of carriage laws, does this sort of 'required compensation' thing hold after boarding happened?

They should do a live auction on the plane, "I need 4 people to get off for $100...$200..." The competitiveness to "win" would save airlines money, make the "winners" feel even better about getting booted, and the "losers" don't actually lose anything. Probably more efficient too.

They got up to $800 and had no takers. Not sure why they didn't go higher, wondering if United doesn't allow employees to offer more compensation than that. Which is a problem if so.

If there is a lawsuit, I bet the settlement will be several order of magnitudes that. Particularly given that the guy was a physician.

I doubt that United would be party to the lawsuit. It would be the airport cops who were called and roughed up the passenger.

They will be party to a lawsuit; and I'm guessing that they'll settle for some amount even if they would almost surely win. Their legal costs will be far more than $800 in any case.

I doubt i'll ever book with United again. I had a flight with United the exact same day as this incident for business but I assure you they've already lost at least $800 from me in future flights as a result of this... bullshit.

$800 in highly constrained flight vouchers. If it had been cash, it would have been a different story.

One of the reports I heard from interviews of some other passengers on that flight was that the United issues voucher in $50 denominations, or 16 $50 vouchers expires in a year and have lots of restrictions and fine prints. In other words, the offer was NOT worthy the face value and hassle of "re-accommodation".

https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights

The airline may offer some alternative compensation (and of course one can accept it) but you have a right to a check.

Of course the airline may try to hide this from you, or give you a hard time, but according to the Dept. of Transportation you're entitled to cash.

I doubt many passengers who got bumped are aware of their legal rights - I didn't until you linked it out.

Edit: I read it again, it read like cash compensation is not guaranteed though.

> Those travelers who don't get to fly are frequently entitled to denied boarding compensation in the form of a check or cash.

In other words, if you have a frequent flyer number or enrolled in customer loyalty program, airlines can argue that you "do indeed" fly frequently, can't they?

You're correct that many people are unaware of their rights. It's too bad; the airlines are obligated to inform bumped passengers of their rights but they don't always.

I'm not sure I follow your edit. How often you fly has no bearing on your rights. The DOT page says:

"Airlines may offer free tickets or dollar-amount vouchers for future flights in place of a check for denied boarding compensation. However, if you are bumped involuntarily you have the right to insist on a check if that is your preference."

If you were involuntarily bumped from a flight and certain other conditions are met, you are entitled to compensation (cash if you wish). It has nothing to do with frequent flier status.

One issue is that the $800 that keeps getting quoted as the offered compensation was not cash. It was $800 in vouchers for more United flights that have redemption restrictions and a 1-year time limit. I guess it's worth something to some people, but it's really easy to see why no one chomped at the bit. United might have gotten someone to volunteer if it was just $500 of real cash.

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