This is one reason why "follow your passion" is a bad career strategy.
It's not unique to this industry. Look at all the folks who get PhDs and waste their 30's doing low paid postdocs ($50K is higher end).
> Look at all the folks who get PhDs and waste their 30's doing low paid postdocs ($50K is higher end).
Research is different. You are certainly losing out on income, however in my experience you have an immense amount of ownership and autonomy over the project. If you get the boot you can take your project with you. You can publish your code as free software or open source and your papers on open access pre-print services. Academic researchers are often far less alienated from their labor than video game engineers.
Consider two orthogonal vectors: one is income earned and the other is your accomplishments. Ideally you want to maximize both, but failing that different people express different priorities over which one to maximize in a career.
It's heartbreaking the first time I hear it. After the 100th time, the sentiment transforms to "Why did you allow yourself in this predicament?" And the answer is always "Passion".
This story has been repeated over and over for the last 15 years. You can take this exact story to aspiring game developers and they'll say "I don't care. It's not about the money. I just want to make games. Even if I play a small role in the project I'll be satisfied"
>You are certainly losing out on income, however in my experience have an immense amount of ownership and autonomy over the project.
Many postdocs don't. They do the bidding of some faculty member.
Many faculty members don't. Sure, on paper they do. But they'll all tell you about the work they cannot pursue because they can't get grant money for it.
>If you get the boot you can take your project with you.
Not true for some postdoc work.
>You can publish code as free software or open source and your papers on open access pre-print services.
Not true as a post doc. My advisor certainly forbade it.
>Consider two orthogonal vectors: one is income earned and the other is your accomplishments. Ideally you want to maximize both, but failing that, different personalities often express different priorities over which one to maximize in a career.
I completely agree with this, which is why I'm not sympathetic to the game developer, or with postdocs who regret spending so long in academia. They picked their priorities - it was not imposed on to them. And for many, later in their life, they feel they picked the "wrong" priorities.
I am sympathetic to them as we have all made bad decisions. I would argue that a neccessary pre-condition to "following your passion" is protecting that passion and pursuing a longterm strategy which allows you to develop that passion and maintain ownership over your work. Chasing passion is not an reason for failing to plan or for allowing others to walk all over you. Software engineers on the whole have sufficient power to not be at the mercy of bosses if they have the will to stand up for themselves. They owe it to themselves and to their limited lifespan to do so.
Edit: I think we both are saying that, to the degree possible, people have a responsibility to themselves to not allow themselves to be exploited.
That, right there, is exactly what im feeling currently.
It all started as a hobby some years ago and I got an opportunity to turn it into a career, so I did. I dont regret that time because I met some pretty amazing people and learned a TON about so many fascinating things. But I finally got fed up last year and left to do some freelancing work while I performed a 'Career-Shift'.
Unfortunately, what I have come to realize is that its pretty difficult to switch from being a contract developer for 10 or so years. I dont know for sure, but I think, because I have the 'Jack of all trades, master of none' resume. It's highly demotivating.
What should have stayed a hobby became a career, and now feel scorned because of it.
I think this statement sums it up.
After a while, I figured out that for most jobs, following passion is too much of a risk. Even if it is aligned with my passions, any minor change (e.g. management decision) can make it a chore or much worse. It will never really be according to my vision.
So I switched to a boring job but with good work-life balance. This gives me free time to pursue my passions. Now I'll grant some passions are demanding enough that you can't reasonably do it in your free time (e.g. certain types of academic research). Fortunately, the solution is to have multiple passions. Even if I have all the time in the world, it is not enough to pursue all my passions anyway. It's OK to pare it down to what is feasible, and it doesn't make me any less happy.
Are you getting no offers, or just no offers that pay well enough?
I have trouble believing that noone would want to hire you if you're good and can show that you've built nontrivial stuff.
None of that is worth the lowered income.
It's hard to find a GDC talk on Youtube where the creator of a game doesn't get teared up talking about the despair and elation they felt slaving over their game for four years. Try this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOlcB-JxkFw
I also firmly believe there are games that won't be forgotten in a few decades.
Its obviously not a 1:1 comparison, but the emotions and feelings are the same is what im getting at ;-)
1. Watch someone work hard on a project they care about for months or years. It could be software, a quilt or a carpentry project.
2. Find a legal way to destroy it in front of them.
3. Say "Come on its just X not the Sistine Chapel."
4. Record their reaction and report back.
It's not as if they found a legal way to destroy it after the work had started. That legal way has always existed. How one can enter a profession where you're paid to make art and not know the rules is mind boggling. I know lots of famous music artists who've felt exploited, but those contracts are likely a lot more complicated than what these developers deal with.
If you're a carpenter, and I hire you to build something, and you don't know that I can stop the project at any point and destroy it, you've got serious issues. Ask any carpenter.
If Michelangelo was paid to produce a masterpiece, I'm sure he knew he didn't own the work. I should probably look up famous artists like him and read up to see if this was even unusual: Getting paid to make something that would be destroyed by the owner.
I'd advise against making someone else rich, at your own expense.
Been there, been done like that.
Greed and desire for the pot of gold are illusions.
Following your passion is fine.
Complaining about low pay because you are following your passion is not. If they're complaining, they care about more than their passions, and they (not their employers) are responsible for satisfying their needs.
You can get lucky and follow your passion as well as take care of material needs, but those are the exceptions. Not the norm.
If there were not aligned, then we should strive to change the market and society to make them align. Without a proper incentive mechanism, no innovation can be done optimally.
I would beg to differ. The aligned ones are the exceptions.
Unless your passion is to make money, that is.
The whole point is that if your passion is something other than to get rich, you are more inclined than the average person to take lower pay to pursue your passions.
"Wow, it's awesome employer X is willing to pay me to do passion Y. I never thought I could make a living doing this!"
"Those who use their skills to do boring work (code/CAD monkey) to make more money are sellouts!"
Most startups are in it for the money. As pg himself wrote: It's not at all unusual in the early phases for a startup to completely change direction because they didn't find a market for their "passion". The goal is to get rich, not to solve business problem Z.
>Without a proper incentive mechanism, no innovation can be done optimally.
I agree with the caveat that the incentive need not be "get rich". Making a lot of money often lowers innovation by constraining it.
I am saying rich being above average and can secure a above average starting point for offspring. I do not think rich should be "rich enough to be considered privileged".
If salary were a function of social value added why is the Pepsi CEO so well paid? So many industries just appropriate wealth from real work.
If people don't yield to the flawed system I say hats off to them.
It's up to them to decide. I, for one, have seen far too many people go the route of academia, stick to it, and then regret it because they either didn't get a tenure track position, or because they were so old when they got one.
It depends on the discipline. Engineering/CS is soft on academics. When I was doing my PhD, it was not unusual for a graduate to get a TT position without doing a postdoc. But if you're in the sciences or math: Good luck.
You are responsible for taking care of your needs. If all you care about is research, and not enough money to pay for your kids' college (the situation of a number of career post docs I know), then I'm the last one to tell you to reconsider.
This is why a system that fails to associate value added with reward gained is so utterly damaging.
Plus, if we're talking about games, you have the money to pay people for quality art, sound, etc. So when you are ready to make that step, you can really give it some polish.
If someone wants to keep that up with postdocs, more power to them. I just observe that there are a lot more postdocs who regret their journey than those who stopped at PhD.
That said, I do enjoy doing research. It's frustrating working with researchers sometimes though. :P Sure, everyone push to master without testing, no problem! I'll just spend my afternoon making things compile again..
Start school at 7;
Start university at 19;
Start PhD at 25 [4-year bachelors + 2-year masters] if you can do that immediately after masters, or 26;
Finish PhD at 28, or 29 (if it's a 3-year PhD, otherwise older);
Finish first post-doc at 31, second one at 33/34.
By mid-30s you are just starting your tenure-track (assuming you get some semi-permanent position at a university or research institute)
I'm currently doing a PhD [quantum chemistry] and this is basically my expectation for the future.