Hacker News Reader

Comment by throw832649 | Hacker News Reader

Throwaway for maximum honesty: I am pretty sure I spend at least 75% of my time "at work" not working. HN, Reddit, messing around with side projects or learning a new language or framework. This has been the case for my entire working life.

I seem to get as much done as other people (sometimes better) so part of me wonders if I'm not as unusual as I feel. Part of me wonders if I should get evaluated for ADHD, since I find it such a struggle to focus on my work. And part of me is just frustrated with myself, that theoretically I could spend like 3 good hours at work each day, get more done, and have more quality time to myself.

View on HN

The best way to describe ADHD is: The TV is always on, but you don't get to choose the channel.

Some things are easy to focus on—I can sit down to program for a bit and lose track of time for 5 hours. On the other hand, if something is boring, it's mind-numbingly boring.

It was the worst while I was in school, since teachers and professors just thought, "oh, he's unmotivated" when in reality it was more along the lines of, "I'd rather cut my toenails with a rusty butter knife than write the paper." (Okay, perhaps that's a slight exaggeration.)

Anyway, if it affects your life and managing it yourself isn't working (give it an honest effort, of course) definitely speak with a doctor. While too many parents think their kids have ADHD when the kids are really just, well, kids, trying to cope with ADHD without some sort of guidance sucks. A lot. It's amazing how much more productive you can be if you get some help coping with it.

Just my $0.02.

Unrelated but I felt compelled to share a similar sentiment:

> It was the worst while I was in school, since teachers and professors just thought, "oh, he's unmotivated" when in reality it was more along the lines of, "I'd rather cut my toenails with a rusty butter knife than write the paper." (Okay, perhaps that's a slight exaggeration.)

Oh man I can relate so much. So many conversations with teachers asking why I wasn't motivated while every night I went home to program and build side projects and was singularly focused on becoming a programmer in the game industry.

The answer was of course I was motivated just not by anything they had to offer and that never went over very well.

I feel the same but only recognise this now that I'm out of education

I've never seen someone describe my education so accurately, down to:

> went home to program and build side projects and was singularly focused on becoming a programmer in the game industry

Based on my discussions with other game programmers over the years, I can conclude that it is not an uncommon story.

> "I'd rather cut my toenails with a rusty butter knife than write the paper."

> Okay, perhaps that's a slight exaggeration.

I have ADHD, this is not an exaggeration. I actually really like your example.

It's literally how it feels like.

I remember being in school and doing things like lining up my pencil with the rays of light coming from outside, and then trying to outline the shadow of my pencil with a different pen. I would spend an entire class on that instead of listening to a single word the professor said.

The worst part about it is that part of you knows the professor is sharing interesting stuff, it just that your brain tells you its boring.

it's like a lack of motivation to the point of abhorring any expended effort on a task because it's _THAT_ worthless of a pursuit to you. It's like you endure pain that other people don't experience just to do normal activities if you don't find them fascinating.

I can relate to (what you wrote and also) "I'd rather cut my toenails with a rusty butter knife than write the paper", but even more "I'd rather cut my toenails with a rusty butter knife than be the kind of person that still isn't writing the paper even though it's 11pm on the day before the deadline but, oh, look, I'm still not writing the paper and now I'm actively running round the kitchen looking for butter knives as if they'd actually get me out of writing the paper, and now I'm cleaning the kitchen worktop for the first time in several months instead, and now I'm 10 pages deep on a Google search for what kind of spider I saw in the kitchen, and oh crap now it's midnight and I'm still the worthless jerk that hasn't started their paper"

I don't know if I have ADHD, though. Admittedly I wrote the above in a fairly exaggerated-ADHD way, and it's all the kind of thing I do actually do, but... no diagnosis, maybe just anxious about failure or lazy instead.

> The worst part about it is that part of you knows the professor is sharing interesting stuff, it just that your brain tells you its boring.

Yes! I remember sitting in class and hearing the professor say, "This is important and will be on the test" and continuing to daydream or fiddle with something else, even though I knew I needed to pay attention.

I've had similar symptoms to those caused by ADHD for quite some time now, but I'm not sure if visiting a doctor will help me much. The symptoms I've experienced are inattentiveness, boredom, lethargy, and poor time management. My question is: if I do get diagnosed by a professional, what kind of improvement can I expect from ADHD medication?

Medication is likely not the right solution for you, there are several very helpful books about Adult ADHD that you should check out that could change your life: Taking Charge of Adult ADHD, and, Is it You, Me, or Adult ADHD? great books

Thanks, I'll check them out!

I don't mean to be rude, but assuming you're not a doctor (and, even if you are, he's not your patient), I don't think it's good form to give medical advice on the Internet, particularly if it's advice that's dismissive of a mainstream treatment.

My two cents, don't rule anything out. I had a SO with adult ADD and medication made a world of difference. That's just one person, though, and everybody's different. Do talk to a doctor if you feel like you might have adult ADD. It's a very real thing, and there are lots of treatment options, both pharmacologic and not.

It's more likely a problem with your environment (job) than yourself. Work isn't fun.

>"The symptoms I've experienced are... and poor time management."

I built a morning and evening routine app (Routinist) to help professionals schedule habits/goals into their days. I did not have ADHD in mind when I built it, but around 1/3 of the positive feedback I get through emails / reviews has some form "I have ADHD and this helps me".

I was on ADHD meds from the age of 10 to 18. They helped but they had really nasty side effects (used to take 2-5 hours of lying in bed to get to sleep, everything seems super dull and its very hard to break the intense concentration which for the most part is focused on unproductive things like organising old photos instead of cleaning your room.) For a phase of my life after I stopped taking meds, I got quite depressed that I couldn't concentrate as well at uni and my first year at work and that I couldn't listen to my girlfriend at the time very well. The analogies that everyone uses here completely resonate with me, in my head was always something like "1800-GHOST-DANCE by Hella" (mathrock song.)

Now I've worked for a bit and have accepted that I'm not wired in a way that will let me be an excellent student (in the traditional sense) without hating myself I have a lot more appreciation for my strengths and weaknesses. The biggest benefits to me post meds have been getting enough sleep, exercising and meditation (even just writing stuff in my mind down) - I'd get all that in shape before I'd go to a doctor if I was you.

Thank you for the informative reply! Yes, my next course of action is to start an organized exercise regimen and try to fit in a bit of meditation every day. I'll work on that a for a few months and see what happens.

Best of luck, I recommend recording your progress which will help with accountability and makes it more interesting

Depends on the meds. I've only had a 'downer' (strattera) that made me feel almost comatose. It helped me focus a lot, definitely. But only by kinda 'blurring out' or 'graying out' the rest of the world that would otherwise grab my attention. I've been med-free since high school. However, I know some people who've taken meds and it's helped immensely.

Sorry I can't give a better answer! It's a question best left to your GP, I think.

Thank you for sharing your experience. I will definitely need to follow up with a doctor first before I can make a decision.

>"I'd rather cut my toenails with a rusty butter knife than write the paper." (Okay, perhaps that's a slight exaggeration.)

This totally describes me. The line I quoted resonates because sometimes the idea of a boring task is actually frightening to me, in the way you described. Like I get a really sick feeling about it and will do almost anything to avoid it. On the other hand I feel like I have so much going on in my head, and so much I could produce if I could only channel it properly. The TV is most definitely always on. My lack of focus and procrastination has definitely held me back in my career.

One thing I'm wary of is medicalising what might just laziness. How do I know it's not a version of "special snowflake syndrome"? Is my own inattentiveness (and inability to get over it) really so much worse than what a "normal" person experiences?

To give a parallel, I heard a podcast where Ramit Sethi was talking about "introvert porn", where he's saying there is all this stuff online about how hard life is for introverts, how extroverts don't get it, basically making people feel good about being an introvert and telling them that it's an integral part of who they are rather than something they can change. And he's saying that this is a dangerous and self-defeating trap to get into because people don't realise that social skills can be learned. All these "introverts" are just falling back onto an excuse to avoid confronting the thing that's holding them back.

If I start blaming all my problems on ADHD am I just falling into a similar trap? After all, not everyone can be successful. Maybe I'm just not successful because I'm not that good at anything, not because of a medical condition.

Possibly relevant: I am in the UK where ADHD seems to be a lot less recognised than in the USA. People here are often critical of the idea of medicating ADHD in kids (which is relatively unusual here afaik). I don't know how a British GP would react to someone asking for an adult ADHD diagnosis - I imagine it wouldn't be taken very seriously.

Judging from a friend's experience in the UK, the GP may well be more useful and take you more seriously than you might think.

Public attitudes to health are often not reflected in the NHS in a variety of ways.

I may have a mild form of this. My brain often thinks of all sorts of crap, and bounces from new idea to new idea all the time without focusing too hard on any given one.

But one reason I haven't sought medication is because I'm a bit afraid that the "TV" might be turned off when under medication. That constant bouncing around of ideas is responsible for a lot of my best design ideas. I don't want that to go away.

I just need to find a fast channel to get my ideas out there. Trying to make 'products' out of all of them just keeps them from getting out there, I think.

It's true that adult ADHD (and non-hyperactive ADHD, and ADHD in women) is under-recognised in the UK.

However, NICE (the National Institute for Clinical Excellence) has published guidelines about diagnosis and the short version iirc is that you're well within your rights to point out that your GP is not a specialist in this area and ask to be referred.

The bad news is there may not be anywhere locally to refer you to, so you may need to travel out of area, pay to see someone private (and then fight to have your prescription accepted and paid for by the NHS). There are more kids' specialists but they may not recognise the nuances of the adult condition.

No, I haven't done it - I've been meaning to for over a year and keep putting it off, ha ha.

Links: https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/CG72 - NICE guidelines; https://aadduk.org/forum/ - AADD UK forum

Thanks very much for your comment. I hope you go and do it soon. I'd love to hear about your experiences when you do.

> If I start blaming all my problems on ADHD am I just falling into a similar trap? After all, not everyone can be successful. Maybe I'm just not successful because I'm not that good at anything, not because of a medical condition.

I think the key is to recognize there are challenges with ADHD, but also to recognize that they're not insurmountable.

I do, on occasion, blame something solely on my ADHD. But, usually I have to be self-reflective and say, Hey, while my ADHD made this task way more difficult than it needed to be, failure to finish it on time was still my fault. So, for example, I'll have to budget more time for some tasks or take small, regular breaks to keep my focus.

We fall into the trap when we absolve ourselves of responsibility. It sucks, and to some degree it feels like victim blaming, but it's life!

> The line I quoted resonates because sometimes the idea of a boring task is actually frightening to me, in the way you described. Like I get a really sick feeling about it and will do almost anything to avoid it.

This is actually an amazing insight. This tells you exactly what the root of your procrastination is. It's not laziness, because I'm sure you can apply plenty of effort in tasks where this fear isn't present. Maybe drill down a bit further on what the source of this fear might be. Were boring tasks used as punishment in your childhood?

People with eating disorders are often afraid of boring food without realizing it. The thought of a diet is scary because they'll be missing out on their favourite foods. After adopting a bland diet for a few weeks, most find their fear dissipates, and bland food can become enjoyable. Maybe try the same strategy with boring tasks? Essentially exposure therapy.

> "I'd rather cut my toenails with a rusty butter knife than write the paper."

This statement really resonates with me too. Getting over the inertia to just start things that I don't really want to do is sometimes a multi-day effort, and then staying focused is hard beyond that. I've been thinking I should get evaluated, maybe I will.

I do have to ask, though, was that a Frank Reynolds toe knife reference?

Your description of ADHD is 100%, but for anyone trying to deal with this issue I would be very careful with meds prescribed from doctors, because for some of them it is mostly a big business. I was diagnosed with ADHD many years ago and prescribed with Ritalin and then an extended version of it (basically releasing throughout the whole day) and while it made me more productive, I experienced horrible jittering, crashes and I just did not feel like myself, but more like a zombie/junkie. I think it is scary that even 6-years old kids are prescribed with these pills nowadays.

pro tip: I was trying to find a natural solution, which for me is DMAE combined with fish-oil. It has basically the same effect for me in terms of productivity without the nasty side effects + you can buy it in every vitamin store. It is funny how I can almost immediately (within few days) notice when I stop taking these.

I never thought I'd have to create a throwaway for HN, but here I am

This is me.

On a good day, I might work for 3 hours of my 7 hour day. On a bad day, 1 hour. Somehow, I get the work done, and even get praised for it, though it's not taxing or particularly good code. I think my firm is afraid to lose me, and let me get away with too much, but that could be paranoia / imposter syndrome. That said, my productivity is on a par with others I work with (surpassing some) and I don't consider myself to be a better coder than they are.

I spend the larger part of my day on side projects, learning new languages, trying new apps, painstakingly reorganising my local file system, reducing the size and complexity of my dropbox folders (even though I'm using less than half of my free space), reading HN, tinkering with electronics at my desk, reorganising my workspace, blogging, reading, listening to podcasts or audiobooks (I find I can't do anything that involves typing at the same time, but I can do graphics)

I have curtailed my reddit / browsing a lot, but its still more than I'd like.

Lately, I've decided that my job is not challenging me enough, and I want to leave it. And so I blame that on my lack of focus. But if I'm honest, I've always been like this. In previous jobs, in college, in school, I've always done the minimum required to get by because I have other "more important" things to do.

I'm easily distracted. I don't think I'd go so far as to say I have ADHD, but I do have trouble focussing on tasks when a computer is involved. I have a theory that this is a side-effect of the modern computing experience itself. Switching tabs and multitasking is so easy these days, with the amounnt of RAM / Bandwidth / CPU we have at our disposal, that doing several things at once is very tempting. I barely bother to close apps. I would normally have 4-5 VS windows, Android Studio, Photoshop, Sublime, etc all open at once, and while I'm not switching between them every five minutes, I might alt-tab to one by accident and lose an hour fixing some bug or trying some thing out.

There were some college projects that really captured my interest, but those were an exception.

I had this same issue until I stopped visiting Reddit completely (even in my off work hours) and gave up my addiction to news. It's amazing the difference it has made in my productivity.

But not HN?

Nah, I don't spend much time on HN. I just scan the front page 2-3 times a day. Plus, I gain a lot of value out of it. I would probably not be where I am in my career were it not for HN.

I've had similar success in the past. But I went back to a single monitor instead of giving up reddit entirely. Not having the distraction always present on the second screen helps.

I use the reddit app on my phone to fill those <10 minute gaps in my day where I would otherwise be bored, eg waiting in line, waiting for a long loading screen, etc. It's simple to pick up and put down in a moment's notice.

Assuming you did the same thing, what do you do now without it?

I carry my kindle around and try to read any chance I get. Or if there is not enough time to read, I try to do... nothing. Haha I know it may seem like a crazy concept but I have been trying to resist the urge of always looking through Instagram, Snapchat, HN, etc.

That's not to say I never do it, a lot of times I still find myself checking social accounts when I'm in line or whatever, but I try to avoid reddit entirely because of how it always manages to suck up more time than you expect and I have found it seriously feeds the addiction to content, especially news.

In "Office Space*, the guy says he spends all his time appeasing his many bosses and only gets 10 minutes of real work done in a week. At my corporate job, I spent at least two hours a day doing necessary tasks that didn't really count towards production, but would cause problems if not taken care of. I also routinely cleaned up messes left by the people being actively rewarded by management for their speed who achieved that by doing sloppy work.

I do freelance work these days. My corporate experience helps me not stress overly much about how little actual work seems to happen. There are always a bunch of tasks necessary to getting other things done that "don't count" as work.

>part of me wonders if I'm not as unusual as I feel

It's probably not as unusual as it feels

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iiOEQOtBlQ

> I seem to get as much done as other people (sometimes better)

Perhaps all the other people are also as unproductive as you? ;)

Yes, that's what he said, in the second half of the sentence you quoted: "so part of me wonders if I'm not as unusual as I feel"

Or they're "productive" in a different way. There's one developer on our team who spends large portions of his day creating diagrams, documents and largely unneeded JIRA tickets. It's busy work, but since he has nothing else to do, he just creates document exhaust.

This really hits close to home for me. The first four years of my career I had the exact same sentiment. I would be able to complete my work in the first few hours of the day and just screw around after that. It was often misguided and didn't accomplish much other then learning random factoids. 15 months ago I finally brought myself to see a psychiatrist for depression, and between therapy and medication I was able to snap out of it and get on my feet again. The only thing is, while I started to love what I was doing again, I still felt no true inspiration to focus on something that wasn't truly challenging. And that turned out to be a major issue for me, and I had conversations with my therapist and she recommended I consider getting treatment for ADHD. One of my friends came by that weekend and happened to have a few extra extended release aderall, so I split it up over the two weeks between my next appointment with my psychiatrist. But I knew almost immediately after taking aderall that I likely had ADHD. I had a moment of clarity where my own thoughts didn't consume me while I worked for 30 minutes. The last time I felt that was probably a decade ago when I was still considering going to school for music performance. I've now been on medication for ADHD for a month and it's had a profound impact on my quality of life. I used to always be tired, regardless of how much sleep I got. I would find myself having difficulty in completing what should be minor tasks with any bit of precision. I was making so many little mistakes here and there that I didn't realize how much of an impact it was having on my morale.

This is a really long and roundabout way of saying, there's no reason not to go see a therapist and a psychiatrist if you feel like it's starting to impact you're quality of life. The worst thing that happens is you go to a doctor and get a comprehensive health examination to rule out any other factors or you take medication for a month that doesn't help.

> Part of me wonders if I should get evaluated for ADHD

I would highly recommend doing this, I have ADHD and knowing I wasn't crazy, and that it has a name, has helped me a lot.

does anybody have experience with neurofeedback? I've heard it works very well for ADHD, but it is a bit pricey for me and insurance doesn't cover it.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com