It's quite Mendelian an attitude, and frankly I fear people who share your view - advancement at the cost of "breaking a few eggs" - a line not unlike what you'd hear from an evil villain in a movie, or, sadly, 2017 hackernews.
You're not the one who gave the former cancer, but you are the one who imperiled the latter.
In the extreme, a small girl was run over in china, and no one stopped to help. Can they be blamed? They were not the cause...
Whereas the other situation, where one has cancer - and you're sadly incapable of helping them - involves no moral compromise. Nobody gave the person cancer. Your intention is to help the person, but you can't. It's tragic, but comparing the situations, only one of them has foul play.
If you think that's self concern, then you're basically resorting to "all good behavior is ultimately selfish anyway" which, like moral relativism, is a slippery slope which removes any kind of standard.
So far in this thread we've seen:
- The end justifies the means
- People are going to die anyway, may as well cause a shift (read: increase) in that number
- All good behavior is ultimately self serving
I wonder what contortion we'll see next.
No it doesn't, where did you get that from?
> accidents are morally superior to murder
Predictable accidents vs murder? What's the difference but personal liability?
> Nobody gave the person cancer
You say it's not about "being linked to the action", yet you think this relevant. Who cares if no-one gave them cancer, does that make it morally superior to die of natural cancer?
> Your intention is to help the person, but you can't
Only because of the way you've framed it. What if you could have helped, if another course of action had been taken?
> then you're basically resorting to "all good behavior is ultimately selfish anyway"
I disagree. You'll have to argue why this is the case.
> involves someone going out of their way to imperil people
No it doesn't, where did you get that from?
____________
That's the entire premise of the discussion! What do you mean where did I get that from?
>Predictable accidents vs murder? What's the difference but personal liability?
One is tragic, the other unethical and tragic. This point is exactly where you wind up with "all good behavior is ultimately selfish anyway" - particularly when you write: "Isn't that just self concern? You can't be linked personally as the cause of negative consequence, so you want to remain divorced from it." Here, you represent doing the right thing as avoiding being linked personally, as if it's just a self-interested maneuver. You're literally, plain as day saying that ethics is merely self interest, hence "all good behavior is ultimately selfish anyway."
The example you wrote above about a girl being run over and nobody helping is completely a false analogy (and a car analogy, no less :)). The assumption from the start, which I made very clear, is that you can't help without hurting others. Saving the girl who was run over does not imperil anyone and is completely moot!
The points in your response have been tactical rather than open (e.g. forcing me to go back and re-state the basic premise, which you suddenly no longer acknowledge, forcing me to go back and prove that you actually made the claim about ethics being self-interested, even though you did so plainly) and I don't appreciate that. These tactics further my conviction that your position is unjustified and ultimately dangerous.
> Except lots of eggs get broken today as a matter of course. If a technology saves lives, losing them to get it quicker might be a matter of balance.
The premise is that losing lives can be offset against saving them. "going out of their way to imperil people" suggests needless harm.
> You're literally, plain as day saying that ethics is merely self interest
No I don't, I give a specific example where I think this is the case; I don't apply this to all situations, or ethics in general.
I also don't "represent doing the right thing as avoiding being linked personally" - I do represent this as the only difference between two examples of doing good, (and hence don't think they are any different), but I don't question the value of doing good, but the relative values of one over another; I see value in saving lives, I don't see value in saving fewer lives because there might be personal liability.
> Saving the girl who was run over does not imperil anyone
This was a real example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue
> forcing me to go back and re-state the basic premise
You are wrong about the premise, so accusing me of playing tactics is moot.
> prove that you actually made the claim about ethics being self-interested
I said something about self-interest, in a specific case. You generalized this to "all good behavior.. I don't appreciate that.
This is why utilitarian math with human lives is horrifying.
You believe you can quantify the worth of a life so that it is easier to justify taking it.
We haven't learned a thing from the scientific community's hype cycle. Scientists and technologists need to humble ourselves - the polar opposite of presuming to operate on humanity based on some assessment of human worth.
We don't even know what a good diet looks like, never mind grandiose agendas based on assumptions of human worth!
(I'd also like to correct what I wrote earlier - I meant Mengelian, not Mendelian.)
You give a sceptical commentary free of any actual examples; what are you talking about?
Why? You just say it is. I see non-utilitarian math as horrifying. The "let nature take its course" school of thought.
> You believe you can quantify the worth of a life so that it is easier to justify taking it.
Says who? Are you talking about intent?
If life can be quantified, there is a justification.
If you don't believe life can be quantified, why don't we spend unlimited dollars saving it?
We'll have to answer the questions of "How much is a life worth monetarily", "How much is this specific life worth in relation to others (or monetarily)", "Does this specific situation justify the loss of lives; if so, how many lives and, specifically, whose?", and "Who gets the power to answer these questions?"
We will have to act on the answers to those questions.
I believe those questions open an answer space that would give power to greedy, selfish, callous or indifferent people and ideologies to kill or let others die.
I believe if we accept a utilitarianism as justification for death, we'll be inviting proponents of human actuarial science, realpolitik, genocide, sterilization and murder of certain demographics 'for the betterment of society' to kill for profit, power or any of the other reasons people have killed others in past.
I don't believe that people determine value well, so I don't buy into the utilitarian argument for much. I also haven't seen good evidence that we can accurately quantify the outcomes of situations used in the utilitarian calculus before they've happened. While I reject utilitarianism as a whole, I find applying the utilitarian principle to human lives to be particularly detached.
> If you don't believe life can be quantified, why don't we spend unlimited dollars saving it?
I realize the questions I listed above have been asked and answered, directly and indirectly, at different times and by different people. Those questions and answers have justified a disregard for life and atrocities against humanity.
I don't believe we should base policy on the answers to those questions.
We already do in healthcare, safety etc.
Roads claim lives, buildings claim lives, products claim lives. We balance costs in all those areas too.
I believe failing to answer those questions openly is a greater harm; You have no sense of improving quality of life, or increase human worth if you pretend it's universally priceless. If you refuse to set the price, others will.
> we'll be inviting proponents of human actuarial science, realpolitik, genocide, sterilization
why do you believe this? this are extreme examples. Conflating fascism with utilitarianism seems borderline slanderous.
> don't believe that people determine value well
They aren't going to improve if there are barred from doing so. What fills the gap if analytical methods don't? Even science started from fanciful roots, could we have had modern medicine without medieval doctors cutting up cadavers?
> While I reject utilitarianism as a whole
do you mean 'don't'?
> justified a disregard for life and atrocities against humanity
You seem to have a sabotaged "brave new world" definition of utilitarianism.
Those people already try to make a utilitarian argument for their actions and beliefs.
I didn't make up utilitarian genocide[0] to slander utilitarians.
> Two given examples of this form are the genocide of indigenous peoples in Brazil and the genocide of indigenous peoples in Paraguay.[4]
> This form of genocide was highly prominent during the European colonial expansions into the Americas, Oceania, and Africa. The colonial expansion into the Americas was markedly different in its approaches to the accumulation of wealth. The French colonization of the Americas through exploitation and the fur trade had a minor impact on the indigenous peoples. The Spanish colonization of the Americas however was devastating to the indigenous population, as was the British colonization of the Americas.[5] Dadrian has also given as further examples of utilitarian genocide the murders of Moors and Jews during the Spanish Inquisition and the killing of Cherokee Indians during the colonial expansion of the United States.[6]
From STERILIZED in the Name of Public Health [1]: > If utilitarian pursuit of the common good required mandatory vaccination to inoculate against communicable diseases, it also necessitated “immunizing” the hereditarily defective in order to prevent the spread of bad genes. Once seen as integral to health prophylaxis and as a cost-saving recourse, sterilization programs intensified at a clipped pace across the country in the 1930s.15 By 1932, twenty-seven states had laws on the books and procedures nationwide reached over 3900.16 Not only did operations increase markedly during this decade, but some states, such as Georgia and South Carolina, passed legislation for the first time.17
> In California, at least into the 1950s, compulsory sterilization was consistently described as a public health strategy that could breed out undesirable defects from the populace and fortify the state as a whole. Convinced of its efficacy, sterilization proponents pushed for implementation of the law beyond the walls of state institutions. For example, in his Los Angeles Times Sunday magazine column “Social Eugenics” (which ran from 1936 to 1941), Fred Hogue claimed that “in this country we have wiped out the mosquito carriers of yellow fever and are in a fair way to extinguish the malaria carriers: but the human breeders of the hereditary physical and mental unfit are only in exceptional cases placed under restraint.”18 To rectify this situation, Hogue recommended broader intervention and argued that eugenic practices, above all sterilization, were essential to “the protection of the public health” and “the health security of the citizens of every State.”19 second edition of their popular textbook Applied Eugenics, Popenoe and colleague Roswell H. Johnson underscored that “if persons whose offspring will be dysgenic are so lacking in intelligence, in foresight, or in self-control that they do not control themselves, the state must control them. Sterilization is the answer.”
This is why I mention actuaries, realpolitik, genocide and sterilization: people in those camps often make utilitarian arguments for their causes.
> You seem to have a sabotaged "brave new world" definition of utilitarianism.
I've heard too many utilitarian arguments for sterilizing or eliminating the poor or other minorities pitched as efforts to maximize happiness.
Sometimes, they're pitched as efforts to maximize the happiness of those being killed or sterilized.
Often, it's "children brought up in poverty suffer, poor children are statistically likely to remain poor into adulthood and their kids will likely be poor; therefore, less children in poverty is better. Here is some napkin math to justify the sterilization of the poor" or "X minority group is a net-detriment to society, therefore less of X minority group would increase society's happiness and prosperity. Here's some napkin math on expulsion and death camps".
The internet is filled with people who make such arguments.
> do you mean 'don't'?
Utilitarianism is useful in some of the ways the market is useful. The market is great at evaluating goods, assets and labor, but it has a terrible track record when it comes to life and human rights.
> They aren't going to improve if there are barred from doing so. What fills the gap if analytical methods don't? Even science started from fanciful roots, could we have had modern medicine without medieval doctors cutting up cadavers?
The philosophies of medicine and healthcare address medical ethics while trying to answer the questions I listed in my OP with regards to medicine.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarian_genocide [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449330/
No, but when asked about utilitarianism, you go to utilitarian genocide.
> The internet is filled with people who make such arguments.
And is the time-cube guy considered representative of science?
I was talking about utilitarianism with regards to quantifying human lives, not strictly utilitarianism in general.
I believe cases from the past where utilitarianism, with regards to quantifying human lives, was used to justify objectively bad things like genocide or sterilization deserve to be considered.
Again, these are my beliefs, I'm not out to slander others.
> And is the time-cube guy considered representative of science?
Given that people with power and authority have used the utilitarian principle to justify bad things, along with the prevalence of such arguments today, makes this an unfair comparison.
Timecube guy has no authority or serious adherents to his ideas.
There's bad utilitarianism, much like there's bad science; bad science isn't science at all.
That people claimed their intentions were pure doesn't mean we have to accept that they were, and that we might be skeptical towards claims of utilitarianism as justifications for inhumanities doesn't suggest much about utilitarianism itself to me.
> I'm not out to slander others.
What I mean by this, is if you characterise utilitarianism as a justification for the above, people who support utilitarianism appear to be supporters of a terrible ideology, whereas those are cases are all deeply flawed, and not a fair representative of utilitarianism.
> people with power and authority have used the utilitarian principle to justify bad things
The comment was a response to "people on the internet" supporting terrible utilitarianism. they also have little authority.
Terrible things where done by doctors in the past, this says little about modern medical practice.
[1] http://imgur.com/wmsy3hV [2] http://a16z.com/2011/08/07/the-fine-line-between-fear-and-co...