Microsoft’s Surface Pro 5 Said to Move to Intel Kaby Lake Processors
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(I read quite a few reviews when they first came out, but I'm always curious to know how those products feel after being used consistently for a long period of time)
But if Windows itself wouldn't be a problem for you, I think it's a fantastic machine
If anyone with actual experience could add to this, that would be great. It does look like a great combo.
(I've been using Linux exclusively for the past 15 years and first thought about going back to Windows because of Surface and WSL)
I had purchased my Book in part as an experiment to determine if a relatively small laptop could actually replace my desktop workstations. Unfortunately the answer to that question remains no. I had been expecting to find the 16 GB the most significant challenge. But before I could even face that, the truly important limitation in my use case is the Surface Book's inability to power two 4K monitors at 60 Hz—with or without its internal display enabled.
Thus my Surface Book assumed its role as my mobile computer. When at home or at the office, I use a normal workstation. When on the go or in a meeting, I'll use my Surface Book.
Upsides:
* Amazing screens, aside from the glossy surface. The pixel density (267 DPI) is astonishing and the color accuracy is superb.
* Touch screen / tablet mode. Can be a nice media consumption device, although these are devices for productivity first.
* Reasonably good performance. I have no complaints for my use-case. Starts and runs fast.
* Good battery life. Though, I don't tend to stress my portable computers with extremely long use away from an AC adapter.
* Good keyboards. The Surface Book is obviously a little nicer here, but the Surface Pro 4's keyboard is surprisingly good for a tablet-cover form factor.
* Good trackpads.
* Good overall fit and finish.
* Windows 10 looks nice and more or less works well enough.
The downsides:
* Did not deliver on the two 4K display promise that was featured several times in the 2015 unveiling video. (Caveat: The Surface Pro 4 can power two 4K displays at 60 Hz by attaching one to the dock and one to the tablet itself; meanwhile, the Surface Book—which has a discrete CPU, mind you—cannot.)
* Magnesium coat/painting can wear down over time. I've had mine since launch and an underlying brighter chrome color is visible on some of the edges.
* Initial launch was plagued by bad firmware and many software glitches. This has been resolved.
* Glossy screen. Tablet computers from the early 2000s had matte screens making them easier to view in the real world where you have light. (Note: the Surface displays look amazing if you have a very dark office.)
* Windows 10. Microsoft still needs to get serious about giving users privacy options. The latest effort they've made there has only confirmed some fears. Not allowing users to opt-out of the telemetry seems utterly hostile to users.
* Limited to 16 GB. Would like to see a Surface Book Pro with at least 32 GB.
It's pretty much great and I can carry it everywhere. It's also silent and cold unless I'm compiling with make -j4.
I found WSL to be impressive engineering feat but ultimately uninstalled it, in preference of Docker.
There's a bit less polish than mac on the basic apps, but I find mac is an uncanny valley toward linux, and I actually prefer either funky Windows cmd.exe or true linux in Docker. I'm also guaranteed that stuff written for Win 95 still works, whereas the opposite seems true for mac (was written for 10.n-1? oh well, wait for the update for 10.n).
Oh btw, Ubuntu runs just fine, but since I use netflix sometimes, without closing all the linux VMs in which work is done, I jsut stick to Windows.
The type cover is also really well done. It's magnetic (like the power plug): you can pull it off and put it back on without looking or thinking much; it just works perfectly every time.
Finally, a great touch is the usb port on the adapter charges my phone in ~15 minutes from empty. It can also power a Rpi.
Netflix works on Linux, too.
Bash for Windows support has gotten significantly better over the past few months (I'm on the slow lane developer release path but everyone should get all these updates in the upcoming creator's update). I've been amazed at how much Microsoft is looking to help developers and I'm reasonably confident that things are going to get much better over the next few years.
As a far as non work activities go (email, browsing, watching movies etc) it's an amazing tablet. It has a ridiculously good battery life. The detachability is really convenient - I start reading something on the laptop, and if it's a long article, I detach it and take it some place more comfortable. Same goes for movies.
One of the biggest disadvantage is the hinge. You can't tilt the screen up beyond a certain amount. If you're tall, you'll find it annoying if you don't have a good desk setup. Then there's the occasional app that doesn't support the super high res, so things look extremely tiny. Unfortunately VLC belongs in this category, but it's manageable.
As far as work activities go, it works great for me. I use Sublime to write react and flask apps and everything works fine. Occasionally there'll be an issue but the WSL community is pretty active and you can find an answer/workaround. So far I don't regret my decision.
The biggest overall downside for is the touchpad. It feels like the mac one but doesn't work as well. It's 90% there but sometimes it's not as responsive or as sensitive. I played with the settings and still can't get it to work quite as well.
My 2c
That said, I would even take the rubber chicken solution :-). Thankfully I don't need to log in often on my Surface pro but when I do it is a pain. So, if anyone has suggestions, that would be great.
https://superuser.com/questions/891413/remote-connection-des...
I have a Surface Book that work gave me. It's quite nice, but I don't really use it all that much because most of my work is on Mac. But I like it quite a lot. If I didn't need a Mac to build iOS apps then I would absolutely consider getting one for personal use. Hardware-wise the only thing that bugs me, personally, is that it can't drive my Dell 5k display. I know, cry a river with my first world problems right? Otherwise I'm happy with the Surface Book hardware.
Ironically, outside of work I've started using my Windows desktop machine more since the Linux subsystem has landed in Windows 10. I've been messing around with some Erlang/Elixir stuff on the side and it's nice on Windows now using Linux subsystem. For a long time now I've been using GNOME and Ubuntu and OSX. I'm still not comfortable using Windows 10 like this yet, but I think it'll get there if I give it some time.
Maybe it's just because I'm a former Ubuntu user (and further disclaimer, I used to work at Canonical).. but I far prefer Ubuntu (or any Linux distro) commandline compared to OSX commandline (hello GNU utilities like sed!), and I far prefer apt-get over homebrew.
The things that I don't feel as comfortable with are basically UI things and application launching. I love Cmd-space to launch stuff on OSX, and hitting the Windows key to search for stuff to launch just feels sluggish in comparison. It's great having bash on Windows, but of course the default Windows terminal application still sucks. There are alternatives like ConEmu, I still need to spend some time trying out some alternatives.
Most of the GNU utilities are available from Homebrew (dupes repo iirc) and they work seamlessly since it is prefixed with a g-. However force linking is allowed too so your workflow is rarely affected.
I find it strange that you like apt because IMO it's not as nice as other full fledged package manages (disclaimer: I'm a big portage fanboy).
In Gnome, Hit the Windows key and start typing 'shortcut' to run the keyboard shortcut editor.
Start typing 'application' to search-ahead-find the 'Show all applications' shortcut and click it.
Press Cmd-space.
The screen, keyboard and stylus are very good. That said, for me it isn't much different than a laptop of the same size in that I never remove the keyboard and really never use it in tablet mode. otoh I don't believe there are any laptops with a 3:2 screen in this size/weight.
I also use a Surface 3 (not pro) for travel -- it fits my need for a device that will run proper software and is as small as possible without becoming too small to use conveniently. Due to the smaller size and built-in LTE I tend to prefer the Surface 3 to the pro. Of course Microsoft discontinued the S3 because Intel discontinued the CPU because...no market.
Overall my biggest disappointment with the Microsoft tablets has been with buggy firmware/drivers. Doubly disappointing because this was my primary reason for using Microsoft-native hardware (after having a long history of similar problems with Dell tablets). Somehow I think the discipline required to ship 100% "just works" products has been lost to the profession in recent years. We've reverted to the Windows98 reliability experience.
256 points, 8 hours ago, fall of HN frontpage prematurely
Regarding the form factor, I'm very happy. Having had conventional laptops, I thought that the SP factor would limit the use cases; I can happily state that this is not true. It can be used it practically in every situation where you use a regular laptop, even sitting in the underground. Of course it's not exactly as comfortable as a laptop in those situations - so one needs to decide if he accepts "90% of ergonomy", or not; I do.
Regarding the Linux support, this is a thorny issue. I'm very annoyed for two reasons:
1. some people will state that it works *perfectly* fine - it doesn't, and to think so it's delusional;
with the SP3, you're stuck with a relatively old kernel (a 4.4.0.20 fork), without sleep functionality
(it sleeps, but it keeps consuming power). Opinions like those are harmful, because they mislead
purchase decisions.
2. the hardware support (=patches) is having a really hard time to get upstream. Stock Ubuntu 17.04
(4.10 kernel) has still issues (one major, I think wi-fi); the Manjaro officially supports it...
except that it doesn't (primarily, the system freezes within 10/15 minutes, while using chrome/vlc, and
possibly anything else). The only hope is the Fedora (which I didn't try).
I do use it very often, for professional development (and as recreational reader, booting Windows). The form factor, and the hardware, make it a very flexible machine, and the SP4 has even more hardware choice.
But be very skeptical of claims that it works perfectly, because it's factually not true.
edit: formatting, and cleaned up some concepts.
It sucks as a laptop: you can't use it on the couch on your lap. You have to keep your legs awkwardly together to support the screen. And as a tablet I still prefer my ipad3 (mostly for safari, pocket and flipboard. Flipboard is not useable on the surface, fonts are too small).
Not using the pen much so far, even though that's why I picked it. To quickly sketch out presentations in PowerPoint.
I am 6'1", for what it's worth. I supposed it's possible that this is more comfortable with longer femurs.
I have my dev setup on it as well but it's not as quick as my Macbook Pro. When I'm at home it usually just sits aside unused unless I want to read some book.
I really like the quality of the Surface devices and if MS releases a quadcore Surface Book I would probably switch completely to that unless Apple releases a new line of 15 inch MacBooks without touchbar.
My first only had 4GB RAM. Now, I'm not one of those programmers who insists he needs 32GB to write Hello World in PHP, but Docker wouldn't start half the time because other apps already secured the RAM they needed and that just wasn't sustainable.
This one has 8GB, which is much more comfortable. I use it for web dev (PHP/WordPress, Node.js), video calls, Slack, and all the other things an Engineering Manager ends up doing. After work, I use it for ebooks (Amazon Cloud Reader), Comixology, Flipboard, the New York Times Crossword, occasional gaming (my kid takes up almost all my free time, not that I'm complaining).
I feel like the Surface really hits the mark as a capable desktop/laptop I can throw in my bag and go. I picked up a Surface Dock on eBay and it has no problem driving dual monitors.
My only disappointment is the thermal throttling, which I hear was fixed in the Surface Pro 4. I tried playing games with registry settings and power profiles, but what's worked best is just a USB fan blowing right where the CPU is. With that in place, it never throttles down when I'm on a video call. But it's such a ridiculous hack. It reminds me of when I had a desk fan blowing over the back of my Commodore 1541 disk drive growing up.
It's kind of weird to use it on my lap with the Touch Cover, too. I need to put my feet up to have any kind of stable surface to balance it on. It's a lot easier to stand it up on a table, but I'd much rather lean back. To be honest, though, I don't use it like that very often so I can live with it. I'm kind of tempted by the Brydge keyboard coming out, but not for the price they're asking.
Before this, I had a Surface Pro 2. That one was way too thick & heavy, and the 16:9 aspect ratio was weird for the kind of work I do. I think the Surface Pro 3/4 really nail the form factor.
I do almost 100% of my work in Bash for Windows. Like one of the other commenters, I am on the slow ring insider builds, I needed this to get inotify support.
Using tmux and Vim, it's a really great environment. Before I started using Bash on Windows, I was still happy with the device, but developing on Windows was a bit of a pain.
Some of my work involves using Docker, which works surprisingly well - Docker for Windows runs Linux containers in Hyper-V without any configuration and I've never ran into a problem with that. Only thing I had to change was to make the daemon allow connections over tcp alongside the default named pipes. That way I can set the DOCKER_HOST variable and use it from within Bash on Windows. There are some minor niggles regarding volumes but it's otherwise perfect.
Outside development, using Windows on the device is pretty nice. I'd rather it didn't have ridiculous amounts of telemetry but it works great and the flexibility of the device is ideal for use around the house.
Artists maybe, but in what universe students routinely write with a pen nowadays?
And in general, scribbling notes or highlighting in provided materials isn't that unusual either, especially among those that own devices with pen input.
Unless they add an LTE option. I'd buy that in a heartbeat.
Historically I have been a Linux on desktop person, since before RedHat knew what enterprise was.
Professionally I work in Linux server environments all day all night.
I went in to my Surface purchase assuming I would be putting Linux on it, but fell in love with it out of the box. The form factor is immediately comfortable to use and Windows 10 is a pleasant environment.
My workflow has changed to accommodate developing on Windows (hello Vagrant!) but outside of that I've never been happier on a desktop. Having an Ubuntu bash console available on Windows was the best thing Microsoft could have done to reel people like me in to their ecosystem.
Get yourself a Surface, a dock and a couple 30" monitors to plug in and Bob's your uncle.
The biggest frustration about it is that many open source projects only care about making their scripting work on a Mac and UNIX. This is awkward because it means I need to use the Bash-on-Windows subsystem which has no updated to a recent version of Ubuntu and is somewhat challenging to upgrade.
Other than that, it's great. It's a solid devbox (when battery saving mode is off), touch monitors are great for working with touch interfaces, it's very easy to plug into the OS primitives to add things like notifications to your build chains, and the battery life even with docker on is better than my corporate macbook pro.
This statement is wrong since yesterday. (2017-04-06)
Are you on fast/slow ring?
I think it must be tied to the update.
lxrun /uninstall /full
lxrun /install /y
bash
lsb_release -a
Distributor ID: Ubuntu
Description: Ubuntu 14.04.5 LTS
Release: 14.04
Codename: trusty
And the dist upgrade process still just breaks randomly saying, "[Screen is terminating]".
Please tell me what I need to do. :P
build number is 1703 and you get it via https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4014184/windows-10-... (there is a download assistent link)
P.S. on a clean install we noted a slightly different install routine.
The firmware/power-related problems have been solved in the Creators Update.
Now that it is gone, I miss it a lot. I bought new MacBook Pro 13 to replace SP4. While yes MBP is easier to use than SP4 in a lap but I didn't realized earlier that SP4 allowed me to use it in more situations.
For example, I took it with me to office and took notes on it in meetings. I would never take a laptop to a social event, but didn't feel bad about bringing SP4 to a friend's place. While it is too heavy to use for extended period of reading, it was still great light reading, especially of small PDFs or magazines.
As for dev work, the screen area was usually on smaller side but completely usable. I used Netbeans and SublimeText for most of my work. In Netbeans, I would close most of extra panes to increase editor's area.
Just in case you are interested, I was using Lightroom to edit photos on it too. Again I had to close side-panes when viewing photos. But I really loved editing photos on it because of touchscreen/pen.
Lastly, I am keeping MacBook Pro 13 for now but I came very close to returning and getting SP4 again. :(
It's expensive, but if you don't need the high-end models with the discrete GPU (and since you were fine with the SP4 I assume that's the case), it won't cost that much more.
I've had more than one surface, and quit using them every time because of how crappy they are to use on anything but a table. I've almost gone back a number of times for the reasons you mention, but know i would regret it at this point.
I find myself wishing the "book" and the "pro" were the same machine. Sometimes i just want a laptop, and sometimes the SP form factor is pretty awesome with how much thinner/lighter it is. It's never enough to get me back off of my MBP though.
It boots up ervy quickly, maintains WiFi and blutooth connections through sleep and is decently powerful. For me personally, the kickstand doesn't present an issue in terms of "lapability". It is, however, a problem on Economy class flights, where Z-axis desk space is limited.
I'd argue that you should think of the Surface as a "laptop, that you can also use as a tablet". As other have mentioned, it is rather heavy for extended tablet use.
I don't see a reason to upgrade from a Surface Pro 4 to a Surface Pro 5. I am nonetheless very happy to see that the Surface Pro line is being maintained and I am looking forward to a 6th or 7th iteration.
I'm a developer. For most of my career I wanted the top of the line workstation with dual socket xeon boards to do my work. More and more I find that unnecessary, for a number of reasons; one of them being almost every stack is getting lighter weight. Even Java EE containers spin up quickly. Still, I want as close to the experience I had with custom built Xeon workstations, and still be mobile. Laptops just aren't mobile. Also, it is mildly embarrassing to pull out a monster windows laptop in public (while everyone cooler than me clicks away on their mac). Plus, giving up any power for limited mobility isn't worth it for me. The convenience of using the SP4 trumps any limitations. The only limitations I can think of are screen size and resolution issues when attaching external monitors when at home. Otherwise, I couldn't be happier with it.
Outside of hololens I use both Ubuntu and OSX all day. Windows 10 is really nice but I can still see the struggle between the tablet and desktop form factors in the UI. The way Gnome and OSX treat titlebars, swipes, and context menus is much more intuitive.
Battery lasts forever.
My biggest issue with it is its battery life. I really wish it could crack four hours. It doesn't.
I've been pretty happy with it for casual use and as a "personal" device at the office. We have a very restrictive network, so I don't do anything personal on work machines.
I purchased a Book -- the revised model, though they're very hard to tell apart -- late last year. I'm technically on my third model, and trying to return it to Microsoft right now. It's a solid system, just not worth the high price tag.
On the whole, there's almost nothing about it that is irritating. Everything works really well together, and you get a system with no bloatware -- but you can find that in other Signature Edition systems. There's little about this system that is particularly good, it's mostly that everything just works really well together. I don't use the removable screen much, but when I do, it's surprisingly easy to do, and actually verges into "delightful" territory. I especially like that I technically have all my data on my "tablet", so to speak.
There is one particularly nice thing that I'd like to see more manufacturers tackle: there's a USB port on the AC/DC converter. So I can charge my laptop and a phone at the same time, without using one of the two USB ports. (It also has an SD card slot, which I happen to like, but they're falling out of favour.)
So why am I looking to return it?
The hinge is a mild irritant. The way the power cord is run means it gets caught under the hinge frequently, and the hinge itself leads to a fair bit of wobble in the position of the screen; it can be difficult finding the right angle. As well, that hinge means that the screen only tilts back so far, which makes the system somewhat difficult to use when you're standing up.
But what really gets me is that of the three units I've had, one had memory issues, and two have a fairly loud buzzing sound when using headphones -- as in, it's actively distracting whenever listening to something. When gaming, it makes it sound like there's something big happening; when listening to music, it's just a constant distraction. Curiously, this buzzing happens no matter what type of headphones I use, even Bluetooth, so the problem is deeper in the system, not in the wiring of the jack.
Because it's been longer than 30 days, I'm strictly speaking not eligible to return the device, so my hopes aren't high that I can return it. And if the system were not $4k, I could deal with this by using a USB-connected audio device. But for the price tag associated with this thing, I have much higher expectations.
The Surface Pro 4 looks much more reasonable in terms of price. I know a few people who have them, and they all love them -- none of them have complained about any hardware issues. At this point, however, I'd probably wait for the Pro 5; even as a hardware refresh, it's worth waiting the few months it should take for it to hit market.
> Surface Pro 5 will not change the Surface Connect power connector, I was just told. Kaby Lake, nothing dramatic. [0]
I don't mind if they keep the connector, but unless they also add USB-C with Power Delivery support (i.e so I can charge over USB-C), it's dead in the water as far as I'm concerned.
For laptops, tablets, phones, etc - anything that's small and low powered, I'm over proprietary connectors.
Having one charger and one cable that does everything is incredibly convenient, and hard to go back from.
Provided Microsoft pays close attention to 'just enough' ports to keep it ahead of the Apple trajectory, I think they'll continue to bite market share in areas that typically were Macbook Pro favored. Win10 seems to "just work" for enough Users while still being a functional Enterprise deployment that I'm frankly still impressed how they've won back customers.
As an owner of an SP3 top spec, the regular experience isn't always as great as the occasional one. Microsoft chose to use a cheap Marvell wifi unit and mine STILL has consistent problems connecting/disconnecting. I've had to reinstall windows entirely in an attempt to get the drivers functional in the past. It still feels crazy to be able to run VMs and CC on a tablet but you will pay for that i7 in heat and battery life.
That said, those flaws are pretty rare and largely worth it in the day to day. Most of the time, it's as you describe - and I haven't heard of the newer devices having nearly the same gamut of problems. Don't buy it expecting to do any serious art design on the touchscreen though, the pen is only "okay."
Though I was secretly hoping for some more exciting additions on the hardware side with this next refresh (OLED display? Wireless charging? WiGig docking? Fanless cooling?), so the "nothing dramatic" comment was somewhat of a letdown for me.
Hoping they have something more exciting planned on the Surface Book side. I might end up going for that instead.
People who bought RT devices EXPECTED to run x86 software but couldn't.
To understand the power of expectations, consider Surface.
Ms originally positioned the Surface as an iPad competitor. And that singlehandedly doomed the Surface until it was repositioned as a MacBook competitor in subsequent releases.
It still sucked.
You're stuck with Windows 8.x, Office 2013 and IE 11. The Store actually has some useful apps. But, like, there's no Firefox, even.
There's no official update and the device is very locked down. I haven't heard of an unofficial way to do that.
Pixel Sense used to be called Surface until Microsoft switched the names around.
Any future ARM Windows devices will have full compatibility with all programs.
How would they pull off that miracle? Emulating Intel on an ARM chip would be sllloooowwwwwww.
...You were saying?
http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/7/13866936/microsoft-windows...