Ask HN: Show me the money - Advice needed | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Show me the money - Advice needed

17 pointsSandB0x20 comments

I'm not asking for legal advice (it's trivial to use the small claims system in the UK). I mostly need advice on dealing with people here.

DETAILS

I am owed money for some web design by a small (~5 man) company. As a student this represents a couple of months rent and forms a significant part of my budget for the summer.

We are both in the UK, and the client was invoiced about five weeks ago. A friend of mine works at this place, and most of my correspondence has been with him, rather than the company owner.

I have twice chased it up with my friend, who has in turn nagged his boss. All I'm getting is that it's on the to-do list, cashflow is tight but it's coming at some point. I asked "does some point mean before the end of the month?", and got an "oooh, not sure". I know the boss is not short of money, and I'm not getting a good vibe from this. We did not set a credit period, but the under UK law this defaults to 30 days.

THE PART I NEED ADVICE ON

I spoke to my friend and said I would write to the boss directly. It shouldn't come across as threatening but I need to give them a kick up the ass. How should I handle this?

What I would write:

Dear X,

Approx. 5 weeks ago I sent you an invoice (reference XXXX) for £XX after completion of the following work by myself: XXXX.

So far payment has not been made on this invoice; could you please give me a call on XXXX so that we can discuss this in person and arrange a suitable time-scale for transfer of funds. I will try to call you myself in the next few days so that, at some point, we are able to discuss this directly.

As a student this represents a substantial portion of my income so I am sure you understand how important timely payment is to me.

Thanks, X

(or in other words: get him on the phone with you)

This is a good approach. Noone enjoys explaining face-to-face why they owe you money, and will probably do what they can to avoid this potentiallly embarrassing phone call.

If you come off as a really nice guy that really needs the money it'll help your case. You're a student and you don't have any money for the summer.

i've noted over the years that the people you deal with mirror your mood. If you act as a nice guy they act nicely. If you send in a lawyer they'll send in their lawyer. If you scream and shout they'll do the same. And screaming and shouting gives an excuse to believe that you're an idiot and don't deserve the money anyway or if cash is the problem for the company that someone else is first in line.

Act nicely but be firm. Make it clear that you're not going to go see your aunt Betty before she dies of lung cancer this summer if you don't get the money. (OK, maybe that's a little thick but you get the point) Make him feel guilty.

This is pretty much copy/pasted from a boiler plate text I have (with some modifications). It's such a common problem in my contract work; the moderate but persistent tone took several iterations to get right.

First time I wrote such a letter it was basically a bit of a rant and the solution was protracted to say the least.

As you say: getting them on the phone (or often just the threat of being on the phone with you) is one of the best motivators :D

Looks good, thanks.

I'm a touch wary of him phoning me up with a sob story. What if he says "Sorry, it's been a tough few months - I can pay you in July" - do I take that or say that the payment is already late^ and demand it be paid sooner?

^ http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?r.s=sc...

I feel your concern, I've always struggled with phone conversations (none of the visual clues of face-to-face but without the buffer email gives). Anyway I would advise...

Just stay firm (as opposed to demand). If he asks for delay then maybe offer something you can cope with but isn't as vague as "next month". 7 days, 14 days - something like that. Offer a specific date it will be paid by. Don't be pushed back though; invent some reason why you need the money (i.e. rent payment etc.) if needed.

Then when you hang up send him a confirmation email with that date in it.

At the end of the day as a contractor his sob stories are not really your problem. On the other hand your financial difficulties are. A little "me first" attitude is appropriate in these situations (stops you being fobbed off).

EDIT: this is a good learning experience btw. It's not just for contractors but all sorts of companies will delay or "forget" to pay you. Where I work the woman who does all the admin spends a good 20% of her time chasing invoices (it has made me resolve to settle every bill I get as soon as I can from now on!)

Whichever you need to. What are and aren't you willing to accept? His sob story should not make you feel bad and the fact that you are imagining in advance a sob story which will then compell you to do something you don't want to is ... a bug in your behaviour which you should notice about yourself and solve one day.

"I completed this work in good faith 5 weeks ago; early July is another four weeks and that's going to be tough for me, but if you are struggling we can work something out - can you pay half of it now and the rest in July?". Perhaps.

You are his equal, a business person discussing a transaction. You have the right to chase this payment without feeling guilty.

What I had in mind when I wrote the grandparent/reply is that bringing in guilt in the form of

As a student this represents a substantial portion of my income so I am sure you understand how important timely payment is to me.

would make it fair game for him to bring up any of his problems. I completely agree with you that business is business. He's not running a shelter for orphaned kittens or anything.

"As a student this represents a substantial portion of my income so I am sure you understand how important timely payment is to me."

This is the first line in the original poster's response I've noticed. In my opinion, you should NOT include this in your email, as 1) it will not help get your payment sooner in any way (he seems like the type to have no conscious) and 2) it gives him leverage, control and power over the negotiations. You should not give away information like that involuntarily.

I disagree; I think it's a pretty important line. The aim was less about it being a sob story and more about introducing the idea, without accusation, that he is being slow and unreasonable.

You do have something of a point; but I don't think it will open the way for him to control negotiations. It was deliberately worded to be neutral with no suggestion that the writer is desperate for money.

On the other hand; if the gp is concerned then anything will do. Perhaps "I like to ensure a steady inflow of money whilst contracting and, as you can imagine, a missed payment can affect my bookkeeping"

(that wasn't a very good example - it's early - but yu get the idea).

Finally; if it does amount to leverage it is only a little. On he other hand the gp has the big gun of the 30 day limit to hand - that is definitely something not to mention till on the phone :-)

This is good. Maybe also mention the 30-day UK credit period (with which I, as a California resident, am unfamiliar).

Why start by writing him? Emails are easy to ignore. Give him a friendly call. That'll kick it up a notch without seeming hostile.

You don't need to act like anything is amiss -- just say you're following up on the invoice you sent on April 30th. End the conversation with "Great, I'll look forward to receiving payment by June xxth. Thanks for the project, and if there's any more work I can do in the future, just let me know."

This (1) sets a firm date (even if his answer is "ah, well in the next week or two...") and (2) keeps it friendly. Personally, I wouldn't acknowledge that this is a significant financial issue for you. It doesn't matter. You're entitled to on-time payment whether you have one dollar or ten million.

Send him an email stating - "This is just a friendly reminder that the Invoice sent on XX is overdue."

This is direct, but not hostile. Works wonders.

(1) Stop talking with your friend. Don't talk to anyone who doesn't have the authority to pay you.

(2) Do you have a written contract? If not, what formal/legal obligation do they have to pay you?

If there's no contract, you might have a copyright or other claim.

You won't get paid until you start acting like the other folks who they pay.

You seem to be very much worrying about money and not bothering him; he runs a 5 person company, apparently has money and hasn't routinely paid your invoice on time - and so is likely very used to being chased for payment. In other words, it feels like a big deal to you but it wont feel that way to them.

Stop worrying about whether you deserve it or if it's fair on him, or if he's had a bad month ( and stop making it your friend's problem). I've found it pretty disgusting overhearing my boss chasing money from customers to see how many habitually don't pay and then shamelessly try anything they can to fob him off - oh no it's past our finance day it will have to be next month, no the only person who can sign cheques isn't here, no we don't have your invoice, actually it wasn't completed properly so we're not paying it, the cheque wasn't signed? You'll have to send it back and we'll redo it next month, and on and on.

Writing to them feels a bit of a cop out as well, frankly, like you want to hide behind it; I wouldn't want to do it myself either, but I think you should call them and ask to speak to him/someone who can help you with an unpaid invoice and say Hi, I sent you an invoice a few weeks ago and haven't received payment for it yet, but the work has been accepted with no complaints or disputes, can you tell me what the status is, please? And go from there.

Don't be surprised if they tell you nobody is available who can help, or that they have reservations or that some part wasn't as agreed, and be prepared to take polite but pushy action - i can resend the invoice, i can come and collect payment, i can hold on the phone, come and see you to talk about it, etc.

You want to end the phone call with a commitment from them to pay, or with a concrete problem to solve and a commitment to pay after that, or some concrete time you can speak to someone when they will be there.

Log when you called, who you spoke to, what they said.

Because you can phone several times and go over several back and forth points in a few minutes it means you aren't waiting a week for a letter reply. If it's still going nowhere in several phonecalls or a week or so then write a stern letter with invoice and reference your phone call logs; you haven't delayed by much but you are in a better position to justify elevating it further.

All IMHO, as always.

Yes, I definitely want to stop making it my friend's problem, and I'm not worried if it's fair on the boss. I am planning to email him, not to send a letter. Sorry if that wasn't clear on my post.

You make a good case for calling first, but I don't think writing is a cop out - I will have a record of the correspondence, it gives him the option of just transferring the money and replying "done", and there's less risk of saying something I'll regret (which is unlikely, but still). After this, for sure I won't let him off the phone before he agrees a payment date.

I didn't pick up that it was email, but if it's only email then it should necessitate much less worry - take ErrantX's template and do it now!

( perhaps without the bit about being a student - I wouldn't put that in personally either as it's not his concern, but I also think that worrying about that is one example of where i would be worrying to the point of delaying or avoiding sending it and wonder if that applies to you as well. That line isn't going to make a world changing difference if you leave it in or not, so if using the template as-is makes it easier to send the email then use it as is).

Did you contact him today or over the weekend? What happened?

Emailed him the next morning, didn't hear back. I gave it till today and phoned, got through to my friend who said the boss wasn't in today, but that they'd just had a load of money come through so my payment will be put through very soon.

I'm not sure what "very soon" means, but I explained the legal 30 day thing to my friend, told him to get the boss to respond to my email asap otherwise I'll have to recover the money through other means. Have emailed to confirm the conversation took place, will try phoning one more time this week and if there's nothing by Monday I'll have to use www.moneyclaim.gov.uk.

Annoyingly, the Bank of England base rate (used to charge interest on late payments) is only at 0.5%, so that's hardly an incentive to pay on time. I can legally apply a charge of £70 though, but I'd much rather they just paid me and I never had to deal with them again.

record everything you do and put dates on everything

print out all your email exchanges and mail them to yourself as you send and receive them (physical mail) and don't open them, and include dates in the body of your emails. Then you can at least have some documented, dated proof of your attempts.

Do you have ftp access to the website? If you do, take it down. The website is still yours, not his.

Stop being a pushover or you will never see your money.

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