Apple's Touch Bar Could Be a Flop | Hacker News Reader

Apple's Touch Bar Could Be a Flop

fool.com

27 pointswalterbell58 comments

Notice that there is no data presented for the "flop" assertion, merely anecdote. Last quarter, Apple reversed four quarters of declining Mac sales, increasing units shipped slightly despite substantially increasing the price of Macbook Pros: http://www.computerworld.com/article/3164132/apple-mac/mac-e....

A few days ago John Gruber linked to a Twitter poll where like/dislike for the Touch Bar was split 50/50:

http://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/04/03/twitter-poll-tou...

If half your userbase likes something, you can't really call it a flop. But I'd argue you can't really call it a success if half your userbase dislikes it either.

While it's not really an Apple thing to do, the results of this poll suggest to me that Apple should make the Touch Bar an option, and not something you are required to get if you want a high-end laptop.

Twitter polls are only useful as a tool for demonstrating how polls with self-selected participation are utterly useless.

A lot of the customer base is going to be relatively set in its ways - they won't like anything that changes the way the interact with their mac unless it's a bona fide home run. I would consider 50% a pretty good number and expect it to rise over time.

Disagree. I'm avoiding the Touch Bar for the same reasons that this article mentions. I'm sure the media and artist group might like it, but touch typists and devs in general don't. The regular feedback I encounter is very meh to bleh on the TB.

I always find the quantity of magazine spam on apple is pretty astounding

I like the touchbar but it isn't make or break for me. At this point maybe Apple should focus more on practical issues rather than "innovating". People often want rather simple improvements like card readers more USB ports, easier change of batteries, memory, hardisk etc. And for us on a Mac Pro, we really just want a regular box with some flexibility in what you put in.

Also I wish Apple continued making displays.

In general companies shouldn't be so desperate to innovate just for the sake of innovating. They should come with new stuff when it is really worth it. In the meantime better to do the "boring" stuff: make software more stable, add less glorius but desired features, upgradability, performance improvements.

Top of my list of wishes are: 1) Modern filesystem. 2) Getting the old Spaces from Snowleopard back. I could not care less about mission control. 3) Replace Applescript with something with sane syntax. What Applescript can do is super cool, but despite knowing over a dozen languages, AppleScript just weirds me out. So despite being a professional programmer I don't get to enjoy the possibilities it offers. Just give it some Swift looking syntax (probably without static typing). 4) A radically improved Siri. Something much smarter which can assist me in more daily stuff. Probably what we want is some sort of AI assistant platform or infrastructure so people can offer more specialized services. E.g. I'd like some smart agent which could help with writing code or editing video.

> Also I wish Apple continued making displays.

Apple recently said it was going to release a new display for the 2018 Mac Pro.

> People often want rather simple improvements like card readers more USB ports, easier change of batteries ...

People want all sorts of conflicting things like a number of things on your list make the box bigger.

Apple should absolutely keep innovating. Perhaps the first iteration of the touchbar isn't a home run but that doesn't mean the idea is a dead end, maybe all that's needed is some haptic feedback.

For Number 3:

Since two releases there is Javascript as an alternative AppleScript: https://developer.apple.com/library/content/releasenotes/Int...

There is one gotcha - filtering of Applescript objects is not done natively but with a custom fluent interface and some query syntax but in its whole it's pretty much JS.

I've owned a MacBook Pro 2016 for about 4 months now and here is my touch bar utilization:

70% Escape key

20% Audio slider

10% Brightness slider

I use Final Cut Pro X a lot too, but its touch bar enhancements are inefficient compared to just using your mouse or hot keys, so I never use them.

Yes, touch bar is a flop (to me). Otherwise, I absolutely love my MacBook Pro.

My thoughts precisely. TouchID is neat, but it's a little slow compared to an iPhone home unlocking, and most days rarely need to use it at all since I'm wearing an apple watch that automatically unlocks the mac anyway.

My utilization didn't factor in TouchID, since it's technically not part of the touch bar OLED and is separate.

I do like TouchID and use it for log in.

> Otherwise, I absolutely love my MacBook Pro.

What did you upgrade from?

I upgraded from a Mid 2012 Macbook Pro Retina

I regret buying mine with the touch bar.

I think that the touchpad is a more natural place for a dynamic, modal touch experience. It is about the same size as an iPhone as well.

I also really dislike how the touch id button is also the power button (which, sadly, I have to use due to frequent UI freakouts) but there is no visual indication that this is the case. I only discovered it by muscle memory from my older macs.

But you have extra USB ports..

Not to mention how they removed MagSafe which is possibly one of the best Apple inventions.

I don't understand how this wasn't the bigger news. Touch bar, meh, most people don't care either way. Price increase? it's apple.

Everyone i've talked to who got one laments the loss of magsafe, though. I've also heard at least one person offline say they were less interested in buying one because of that

The loss of MagSafe is far outweighed by the fact that I can plug the power cable into either side of the laptop and charge my laptop using the same portable battery pack that I use to charge my phone. Literally doubles my time away from a plug.

Also. I like the Touch Bar a lot. This laptop had some real software problems on release, but at this point with 10.12.4, I'm an enormous fan.

I find there are a lot of opinions from people who don't own one. Maybe it's just me.

If only this weren't scam-ware, we'd have a decent solution:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1041610927/znaps-the-9-...

The cynical side of me wonders if apple is doing this whole screw the ecosystem up (monitor, mac pro, magsafe, time capsule, etc) so they can rescue it and get another round of upgrades out of it.

How do you know this is scam-ware? Looks plausible and possible to me. What am I missing?

Check the comments:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1041610927/znaps-the-9-...

It's too good an idea to not be implemented eventually. In fact, a low profile, magnetic data/power form factor should probably be the next iteration of USB-C.

OTOH, you can now use a standard charger that is shared with increasingly many new devices. How many people are actually knocking laptops off tables because of the power cord?

> How many people are actually knocking laptops off tables because of the power cord?

I would say I did this at least twice a month.

Does the USB C cable not disconnect? From the ones that I've played with, it seems fine. The force required to disconnect USB C cables from a port is less than Magsafe, and the results are the same.

Also, remember Apple designed USB C, with half the engineering talent that worked on the standard coming from Cupertino. They've specifically thought all these use cases and issues through, to build a solid connector for the next decade.

> They've specifically thought all these use cases and issues through, to build a solid connector for the next decade.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

It's a decent connector, but it still has a limited lifespan (all connectors with mechanical pieces or interference fits do), and isn't going to release from shear force applied to the connector. Even if it does release, it will be after wrenching both the computer and connector inside the computer, neither of which is great for long life.

If you pull it out straight? Of course it's fine.

If you accidentally yank it up or down? It's like it's glued in there. 45° angle? Also glued in there.

MagSafe, the whole point was it didn't matter what angle it was pulled, it would separate easily and with no damage.

I have literally never knocked a laptop off anything because of its power cord, or for any other reason. I have, however, had MagSafe disconnect itself against my will from the slightest touch.

You know what's even cooler though? I'm a happy USB-C MacBook Pro user, and so I've put MacBook USB-C power supplies all over my house, wherever I might find myself working. Recently I picked up a Nintendo Switch. It charges via USB-C. This means I effectively have 4 charging points for this gadget, automatically, just because of my MacBook Pro. That is awesome.

In my house 0 people and one cattle dog. With a four foot fall from the breakfast nook below I assume it wouldn't of been pretty.

Back in the day, I watched someone do it to their brand new first-generation MacBook pro. I had never felt so bad for someone breaking something but, somehow, he made more selling it for parts than what he paid for it.

It only takes once to ruin a laptop.

And I've had my magsafe release many times in the years I've had it. Not every time would have resulted in the laptop going walkabout, but it would have resulted in a short stop and possibly damage to the USB-C socket and cord instead.

Anecdotal, I know, but I tripped over the cord on my laptop today and as the magsafe connector smacked me in the back of the leg I thought to myself "if that was USB-C, I'd have broken something" Laptop would have gone flying off the table, cable or connector would have broken or more likely, just would have ripped the connector out of the laptop and weakened both the socket and the cable, rendering the socket useless over time. USB-C is cool for some things, but, magsafe is far far superior. Apple should have put both on the new MBP.

Before MagSafe, this was actually a common thing. And broken charger cord tips, or worse, the sockets.

Of course, we also had shorter battery life, so working without being plugged in was a joke.

I purchased the new 13" MBP with touchbar when it came out. As my first Apple laptop, I have to say it has changed my life and the way I use other devices.

I will admit the touchbar is a tad gimmicky. There are a few things I would change and I am waiting on many apps to upgrade to include some touchbar functionality (chrome canary currently supports touchbar contextual buttons). One thing that is kind of annoying about it is the Siri button - I’ve accidently clicked it more than meaningfully. This being said, I don’t regret the upgrade over the traditional model and I would recommend it. I think the argument of having to look down at the keyboard is a bit ridiculous.

The dongle situation is not even really an issue either. I bought two USB 3 -> C adapters and keep one at home and one in my bag. I can count on one hand how many times I’ve used them. I do think Apple could have AT LEAST included one of these with the purchase. The Apple TV airplay integration is so good you can stream action movies without lag, obviating the need for an HDMI or other video output. For the smaller and lighter profile, this tradeoff is justified.

Battery life is pretty good. It could be better but I can go a day of heavy use with two charges (ie. charging mid-day).

The large trackpad and force touch is a joy to use and the keyboard is remarkably clicky despite its low-profile. All in all, its a great machine and the additional functionality will come as apps slowly upgrade to support the touchbar.

Reposting my comment from 160 days ago!

I honestly hope the Touch Bar doesn't survive longer than one generation of MacBooks. I believe the whole thing is a gimmick (a well intentioned gimmick) meant to drive forward one thing, Apple Pay on the MacBook. Most likely it's internally perceived as a situation where the end justifies the means, if Apple Pay is widely adopted on the MacBook this will look like a genius decision down the line and make a ridiculous amount of money in the long-term. If not, blame the Touch Bar.

Apple should have done a full touch input screen on the MacBook. It might not have been perfect, but it would have been lauded as revolutionary by the mainstream media. By not doing it they have now given their competitors the chance to grab that market.

When Apple does eventually make a full touch input screen MacBook, Apple Pay will be a part of it. The Touch Bar is just a stepping stone to get to that point, but it's a step they should have skipped.

What? Revolutionary? There are a number of other laptops that have touch screens...

Touch Bar Meh... I would agree its a flop for an Apple innovation. I've had the new MBP for three months and i could count the times ive used it on my fingers..

Touch ID is nice but its like a button next to the touchbar so i dont really count that.

Was a bit worried that id miss the esc key but its works ok on the Touch Bar. Else i just use it to adjust the sound. But its too damn sensitive its enough if one cell of your finger touches it to toggle something...

Other than that I feel the overall quality of MBP is way lower then it used to be.

Never ever had Any issues with my previous 2011 and 2013 mpb but the new one bugs and acts weird in all kinds of ways (freezing, sounds stops working etc) and needs Restart every few days. Feels a bit sloppy and rushed for an Apple product.

Love the design though...:-/

Hi shroom -- curious why you capitalize both letters in "it"?

I wrote on my iPhone with swedish auto-complete so it likes IT as Information Technology.

*I edited it now :)

On my HTC it capitalises Of The ... I have no idea why, I can't see why anyone would want that.

Completely agree. Having too look to use it makes it not very pleasant to touch vs a responsive key. While it's a neat feature for the day doesn't seem to help with productivity since I can do anything quickly already blindly with the keyboard. If the next MBP I buy has a version without (but top of the line in all other respects I'd opt for one without the touchbar. I'm often using that space to adjust the sound or sometimes manually the brightness and that always becomes a conscious chore with the touchbar.

I like many are sticking with it hoping someone will find a user for it that makes it a killer feature even if niche.

I specifically bought a 2015 refurb pro instead of the touch bar model, I have negative interest in the touch bar. Who wants more friction in their deeply ingrained workflow? Why do I want to start looking at keys again? No thanks.

Same here. I bought a 2015 model.

https://medium.com/@Pier/why-i-bought-a-2015-macbook-pro-fad...

It's not the addition of the touch bar I don't like. It's the removal of the magsafe and forced "dongle-spaghetti" I need to use the USB Type-C.

I keep a keychain usb-c to usb-a adapter on me. I've only used it once in the past 6 months.

It's not as big of a deal as I thought it would be.

This article seems to conflate the recent Mac Pro teaser announcement, with the low acceptance of the MacBOOK Pro. They are two entirely different products with different histories and different problems. Then there's a quote that makes an obscure reference to "problems surrounding the LG UltraFine 5K display", which could be used with either machine.

I personally hate the touchbar. I always have a keyboard hooked up to my mbp so I use it rarely to begin with. When I do use it, its primarily to adjust the volume. The fact that the layout changes and I can no longer really use muscle memory to do certain things makes it a pain for me to use.

The fact that the layout changes and I can no longer really use muscle memory to do certain things makes it a pain for me to use.

It seems like a complete contradiction to the philosophy driving UX design on the Macbook prior to the touchbar. The trackpad gestures and the switch to 2 finger scrolling to make it the same as multitouch on tablets -- these are both muscle-memory friendly decisions. The touchbar goes against this!

I have to say, on my physical keyboard, I still have to look at it to change the volume. It's simply not something I do frequently enough to have proper muscle memory for it. In fact, anything past F1-F4 I have to glance at to make sure I'm hitting the right button.

I bought the touchbarless model even though I would of rather had the more powerful machine.

I like the physical buttons more.

I had recently purchased Pro with touch bar. The only downside to touch bar is that, you won't get the feel of pressing a key. For example if you want to save a file in vim, you have to press ESC which at times leave you in doubt whether you pressed or not.

But touchbar id is great.

They should have gone all the way- and revolutionize the whole laptop-keyboard away, with an additional touch screen, with synthetic haptic keys on demand and a background illuminated e-ink display.

Add a GUI designed just for this to the whole Setup, and let it be executed by Perfectionists like apples- and they would rule the HW-Valley till kingdom come.

Haptic Display by Bosch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiCqlYKRlAA

10C-Gui: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWz1KbknIZk

If anyone could get this done - its apple.

Makes you wish you could sacrifice points to get a topic discussed- Sigh

My only gripe with the touchbar is that it replaced the function key row instead of going above it; other than that, I very much like the oled touchbar.

Considering it's the fastest selling MacbookPro ever I'm not sure this article makes sense.

The touch bar is a flop. You don't have a tMBp if you are writing this headline.

I'm shocked.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com