Comment by zigzigzag | Hacker News Reader

Comment by zigzigzag | Hacker News Reader

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The New York Times lies routinely.

Here's an example:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/27/world/europe/aleksei-nava...

"Aleksei Navalny, Russian Opposition Leader, Receives 15-Day Sentence"

I picked this one because it generalises: the statement that Aleksei Navalny is the "Russian opposition leader" is one you can find in every mainstream media outlet: WashPo, Reuters, the Economist, the BBC, etc. But it's false. I first fact checked this statement years ago and have occasionally rechecked it since to see if things have changed, but at no point has Navalny ever held a position that could be described this way:

- He isn't coming second in any polls

- He doesn't come second in elections

- Only around a third of Russians have even heard of him

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Russia...

The former communist party does better politically than Navalny.

No matter which data set you pick, Navalny is never the "leader" in it ... except western media attention, where journalists act as if there are only two politicians in Russia, Putin and this other guy.

You can find endless other examples if you start fact checking, all from supposedly reputable sources. I can't even begin to list them all because we'd never end.

I suspect your belief that the mainstream media is a bastion of truth and factual excellence is not one that will be easily shaken, so you believe whatever you want to believe. But I've given you an example, as you asked.

To quote from the very article you're citing:

"At the urging of Mr. Navalny, tens of thousands of Russians — many of them in their teens and 20s — poured into the streets in scores of cities across the country on Sunday to protest endemic corruption among the governing elite, despite a blanket ban against unsanctioned rallies of any size."

I'd say that organising the largest protest against Putin in a decade does make you "a leader of the opposition". And if you're questioning his involvement with these protests, I'll let this Russian court make my point: "The court on Monday also fined him about $350 for organizing an illegal demonstration."

No it doesn't. "Leader of the opposition" has a clear meaning. By your definition Nick Clegg is leader of the British opposition because he was involved in organising a recent big anti-Brexit protest, but nobody in the UK would recognise such a definition.

Regardless of what you may personally believe about Russia or its politics, the statement that Navalny is "leader of the opposition" is simply 100% factually false by any hard, observable data.

leader |ˈlēdər| noun

1 the person who leads or commands a group, organization, or country: the leader of a protest group.

• (also Leader of the House) (in the UK) a member of the government officially responsible for initiating business in the House of Commons or House of Lords.

You're arguing the second definition, which is specific to the UK.

I told you that you wouldn't accept my response, despite it being a data-based rebuttal to a statement of fact in the NYT, and you did not disappoint me.

Anyone can lead a protest, especially small ones. To be "the leader of THE opposition" you need supporters in great numbers in any country. Navalny simply doesn't. The polls show quite clearly that other politicians who run against Putin have higher name recognition and more popularity.

Just look at yourself - if hard polling data that contradicts a specific statement of fact can't convince you, nothing ever will. You'll always find yourself falling back on trying to argue that technically the NYT's statement doesn't mean what it seems to mean regardless of what counter-example is picked.

Hi there! Actual Russian here.

Aleksei Navalny is indeed a de-facto leader of Russian opposition.

>- He isn't coming second in any polls

Not true. [1] is the only major election in which Aleksei personally participated. He came second with huge gap between him and the third one (despite state-organized media campaign against him).

Moreover, it seems you misunderstand Russian political climate. There are no real political parties here except those loyal to Putin. Most "candidates" in that wiki list are sock puppets with the exceptions of Navalny and Khodorkovsky. Khodorkovsky is not really a politician at this point, so your ironic assessment of

> journalists act as if there are only two politicians in Russia, Putin and this other guy

…is actually true.

Here are a couple of other data points for ya:

- Navalny's NGO called FBK (Фонд Борьбы с Коррупцией, Anti-Corruption Fund) made two biggest investigations to date: on Chayka (Russian's Prosecutor General) [2] and on Medvedev (our prime minister) [3] ([4]). They have more than 20M views between them on Youtube alone (there are countless copies on other social networks) and the latter triggered biggest demonstrations in 5 years.

- FBK voluntarily publishes financial reports which you can find here [5]. According to them, FBK got 40 million rubles in donations during 2015. This alone makes them most-donated-to political NGO in Russia by far.

All in all, I believe this particular fact check lead you astray.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_mayoral_election,_2013

[2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXYQbgvzxdM

[3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrwlk7_GF9g

[4]: I strongly recommend you to check those out, they have English subs

[5]: https://fbk.info/about/reports/

Hi there! You being an actual Russian doesn't change anything about my argument, which is about the reliability of western media and not Russia specifically, that just happened to be a convenient example.

Your rebuttal is that:

- The other higher polling and more well known politicians aren't "real" opposition politicians, they are just sock puppets.

- Navalny did well, once, in one city, in a race which Putin didn't participate in.

The first is your opinion only. You don't have data to support that, just your own political viewpoints. You being actually Russian doesn't make any difference; you can find people in the UK who think Tim Farron is the "real" leader of the UK opposition because he's actually trying to overturn brexit, but that isn't based on any hard data either.

The latter is irrelevant: I knew about that election and when the west says Navalny is "leader of the opposition" they don't mean against Sergey Sobyanin, obviously, as nobody in the west knows who that is. They mean against Putin. And regardless of what you may believe about the other politicians in Russia, "opposition leader" has a clear factual definition which he does not meet.

This political opinion is invariably phrased as if it were inarguably scientific fact in the New York Times and elsewhere. Your personal belief that it "feels" true doesn't change the facts: the media is lying.

Wonderful. He presented you the facts... and you've dissmissed them since they didn't fit your agenda.

No: I presented polling data. He said that the other politicians named in the polls aren't "real" but offered no data to support that, it's just his opinion.

If facts are defined by anything, they're defined by data. The data shows that Navalny simply isn't a major player in Russian politics, yet western media constantly and consistently claims that he is. Fact.

You see, it's quite hard to show to a person on the outside the absence of real political contention between the "official opposition" here and Putin's regime. It's the thing about showing an absence: I would need to provide you with a ton of context for you to appreciate the glaring complacency of the "official opposition".

Here are some examples, though:

- we had presidential elections in 2012. Per Russian law, there are only two entities who can sue for electoral fraud: a candidate whose score was harmed and a state prosecutor. The fraud was widespread during that voting, with dozens of filmed cases (see [1], [2], etc. One of fraud cases I witnessed myself). Guess which candidate stood for themselves in court? Not a single one.

- can you please name a single "opposition party" which participated in the recent (26th of March) protest?

- can you please name a single "opposition leader" (including 2012 candidates) who debated against Putin or demanded debates? In fact, can you please provide an example of any sort of pointed critique of Putin (like the curious source of wealth of his friends) from any candidate in the 2012 election campaign?

I should also note that you are very dismissive of my "opinion", and yet I'm definitely more knowledgeable of the intricacies of the political process here. I don't think that sounds like a desire for "facts"; on the contrary, you are trying to dismiss counterarguments to your (wrong) accusation.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEf9YSxobTE

[2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwwlBzmM8qs

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