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Comment by zzalpha | Hacker News Reader

Community seems to be uncommon in the age of individualism.

You've just identified one of the many things that I believe Canadians see as a value that distinguishes us from our friends to the south.

Whether that's fair or not is something else entirely. But I think it's true that, generally speaking, Americans see individualism as one of their defining values, which directly informs a whole host of other derived values (belief in the power of capitalism, distrust of government, etc).

My experience (for what it's worth) is that Canadians, on average, may value those things, but I don't believe they are seen as a defining element of the Canadian identity.

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Canada is a large and diverse country. It also lives with the imposing cultural presence of the US. Growing up in Canada, I never got the impression of a defined Canadian identity except for one thing: We are not Americans.

For me, nothing demonstrates that more than Canadian rejection of the "cultural melting pot" of the US in favour of "multiculturalism". I went to school in the age where we still sang God Save the Queen and recited the Lord's Prayer every morning, so it's going a fair ways back, but I remember actually being taught multiculturalism in school (which, as the perversity of this sentence shows, was perhaps an academic exercise). I distinctly remember being told over and over again: We are not American. We do not value a society with a single culture that absorbs other cultures. We value a society of many cultures that live together in harmony.

I think you will see a lot of variation wrt things like individualism in Canadian culture. For example, it is probably a strongly held belief in places like Alberta. But maybe in the small cities in Quebec or on the east coast, you're going to get a lot more responsibility for community. The string that holds it together, though, is the acceptance for a variety of insular cultures.

As other posters have mention, Canada limits immigration. I suspect that it would run into very similar issues to what the Australians have had to deal with in the past 30 years if it didn't. I always find it strange that my adopted home of Japan is probably one of the easiest countries in the world to emigrate to, but because of it's very strong mono-culture, immigrants generally do not stay. In spite of my upbringing, I enjoy living in a mono-culture -- a very embarrassing admission, and I invite all true Canadians to come and spit on me ;-)

You don't have public contact info in your profile so I'll post here :)

I don't want to spit on you (ew), but am interested in meeting some of my fellow Canadians living here in Japan.

If you (or any other Canadians reading this) are in Tokyo and interested in comparing notes over coffee, please drop me a line (email in profile).

Hey. I'm available at my username @ gmail. I really should put that in my profile. I'm living in rural Shizuoka prefecture, and don't make it to Tokyo very often, but I'd be happy to meet up sometime.

Maybe think of the USA as schizophrenic.

I was raised Presbyterian. We've always sponsored refugees, fed the hungry, did missionary work, etc. Young me just thought that's what Christians do. We certainly didn't talk or brag about it; that was very gauche.

It wasn't until I was much older that I figured out my congregation was considered liberal.

There are more liberal Christians than not. But we're not vocal or organized. So the fruitcakes have way more influence.

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/yazoo/unmarked.html

  "He who shouts the loudest
  Is the one who's in control
  We who never listen
  Are the ones who pay the toll"

> I was raised Presbyterian. We've always sponsored refugees, fed the hungry, did missionary work, etc. Young me just thought that's what Christians do. We certainly didn't talk or brag about it; that was very gauche. It wasn't until I was much older that I figured out my congregation was considered liberal.

I would not consider the Mormons socially liberal but they do plenty in that vein https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-28/how-utah-...

Active, rather than nominal Christians do plenty of that kind of stuff, whether they're conservative or liberal denominations. In the long run the liberal denominations seem unlikely to be relevant. Liberal so-called mainstream Protestant groups have been bleeding members since the 80's at the latest.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2016/january/chur...

This represents much of the church in the USA that is out of the mainline. I don't know who exactly you are calling "fruitcakes" or what you mean by that, but while I've seen some in the rank-and-file be prejudiced, I've also seen leadership speak very strongly in support of caring for refugees.

Christians following the teachings of Jesus are probably not fruitcakes.

The problem in the U.S. is that such a program of government funded private sponsorship is not even discussed. Instead government officials decide they want to dump refugees into cities and surrounding suburbs and "manage" them as an exercise in bureaucracy.

We've seen this done with Somalian refugees in Minneapolis, for example, with the result that Minneapolis has one of the worst rates of rape in the entire U.S. (They have the 4th highest rate.) [1] This, in fact, is identical to the sorts of problems now facing Europe, and the actual reason for the "growing climate of resentment".

One of the key success factors in this Canadian experiment seems to be one of cultural adjustment. This particular example gives an anecdote of a statement (and acceptance) of values; "we expect you to work and support yourself" / "she lives here, she must know what is right". This tends to be another area where government tax-and-dump fails, as the same officials who want a bureaucracy-only solution also believe that American cultural values, such as they are, are irrelevant at best.

Voicing disagreement of uncontrolled ingest of refugees isn't about being cold-hearted. It is rational concern for our own children and families, and the character of our neighborhoods.

Talk to me about a plan for sponsorship like this one that includes acculturation; I'd vote for a tax increase on my income for that kind of a plan.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...

I wouldn't draw such a conclusion just from this article. One of the things it highlighted, and that I feel as well as a Canadian, is that to a certain extent the sponsors acted in ways that benefited themselves over the refugees. Like the lady who wouldn't show them how to use the bus, because she's wealthy and doesn't ride buses. Or when the sponsors refused to let the kids' parents work through a simple issue like the school bus not showing up, and instead injected themselves into situations they didn't belong in. That was selfish and self-aggrandizing.

People are people. I think there are many Americans who would be happy to sponsor a refugee family (and indeed many have donated towards sponsorship costs for Canadians), but their government doesn't let them. Likewise there are a lot of Canadians that are virulently opposed to refugees coming here and getting government assistance after their private sponsorship assistance runs out. In fact our own government put the brakes on the sponsorship program early this year.

Or when the sponsors refused to let the kids' parents work through a simple issue like the school bus not showing up, and instead injected themselves into situations they didn't belong in. That was selfish and self-aggrandizing.

I think that's incredibly unfair and I'm frankly astonished you'd interpret their actions that way.

How many people step in when their loved one is failing because they care about them and want to help, and don't want them to be discouraged if things go poorly?

That's exactly the dynamic at play, here. In fact the article goes out of its way to point that out.

It's such a common human experience that I can't help but wonder if you're going out of your way to view their actions in a negative light.

As for the rest, well, these are my own impressions based on my life as a Canadian, and my extensive exposure to American culture... take them with a hefty grain of salt. shrug

My comment is not intended to portray the sponsors as bad people. I am sure they want to help the refugees succeed in their new life. My intention is to demonstrate that this is not as simple as Canadian collectivism vs. American individualism. A strong dimension of this story is empty-nesters essentially adopting a new family, which is great, but then proceeding to treat them - although with the best intentions - in a somewhat condescending, parochial way, as if the adults of the family aren't grown people who've already survived a thousand times more hardship than the sponsors have ever known in their lives.

I think the sponsors are good people. But I disagree that they're good in some kind of uniquely Canadian way. These are empty-nesters searching for a new family just like these ones right across the border in Buffalo or Bellingham or Burlington. Just look at overseas adoptions in the United States.

You've misunderstood these people and why they're doing what they're doing. Here's a passage (from https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/world/americas/syria-refu... ) that may clarify it for you:

> Mr. Nunn, 65 and recently retired, said he was looking for “an indulgence” to mark the event. In Huntsville, an ad on a bulletin board for a motorboat caught his eye. Along with the boat ad, he also took a flyer from a refugee group.

> After reading both on a flight to Florida, Mr. Nunn decided to make the donation rather than purchase the boat — even though it “looked pretty cool,” he said.

> “A fancy trip, a car or boat, kind of diminish and memories fade,” said Mr. Nunn, who had never supported any refugee group. “This refugee effort will have effects that go on for generations. Where is the best value, where is the best return? I threw away the boat ad.”

These are wealthy people looking for the most meaningful and impactful way to spend their time and money. It's not about self-aggrandisation and it's astonishing to me that someone could interpret it as such.

By the way, about:

> I think there are many Americans who would be happy to sponsor a refugee family (and indeed many have donated towards sponsorship costs for Canadians), but their government doesn't let them. Likewise there are a lot of Canadians that are virulently opposed to refugees coming here and getting government assistance after their private sponsorship assistance runs out.

Well, back in 2015 when the Conservatives were in power in Canada and the Syrian crisis brought fresh horrors every day, it turned out that the Conservative government denied a lot of refugee applications, including that of Aylan Kurdi's family. Canadians said enough is enough and voted in someone who promised to bring in a lot more refugees--which he promptly did. Americans, in contrast, and with the full benefit of seeing the Canadian refugee situation, decided to go the other way. I think it's quite clear what message they sent.

My parents are weathy and retired. One of the many "Keeping up with the jonses" money expenditures are symbolic philantropic excersizes with dubious impact. This just seems like another. I am not sure if that goes with or against either of your points but seems relevant nonetheless.

I am curious why you think it's a symbolic exercise with dubious impact? Did you read the article?

The results are obvious and the effort is a success, even if the ultimate outcome remains in question. The ultimate outcome always remains in question for us all.

Hawthorne effect though

Speak for yourself. I don't think hospitality is a broad Canadian value. Individual people in Canada are making the decision to host refugees, they are the kind of people who can do that and want to.

I don't know how much you know about Americans, but as a Canadian I don't really see what you see, and it seems a bit condescending.

Personally I think that it's cruel (even if the intentions are good) to play saviour for a few hundred thousand people while an entire nation suffers. We should be investing in their ability to sustain their own society, not placing their failed society's burdens on our own. On top of this, the enormous cultural incompatibility is already breeding flaming resentment in communities with many landed refugees. If we keep this up without thinking about how to do it right, we will get the worst possible outcomes.

Speak for yourself.

Hence use of phrases like "I believe" and "I think" and "My experience (for what it's worth)".

Was that not disclaimer enough for you?

I don't know how much you know about Americans, but as a Canadian I don't really see what you see, and it seems a bit condescending.

Certainly not the intent, and I hope it didn't come across that way.

I do think it's true that Canadians and Americans, as a whole, have an overlapping but different set of... rather than values, let's call them priorities.

If making that claim and observing the differences is "condescending", I don't know what to tell you. Certainly I wasn't attempting to ascribe a judgement to those priorities. I was simply highlighting that I believe they're different, and that the "age of individualism" is not a universal experience.

Of course, you're more than welcome to disagree with that, or disagree with the very concept of a national identity or commonly held set of priorities.

Personally I think that it's cruel to play saviour for a few hundred thousand people while an entire nation suffers. We should be investing in their ability to sustain their own society

Why not both?

not placing their failed society's burdens on our own.

What was that about being condescending?

Two years ago I met a lady at downtown disney orlando. She was Canadian and super nice. Sat next to us in a restaurant. We had a wonderful conversation. The lady finished before us and invited me to visit her in Canada. Gave me her addres and phone number. I was amazed. She didn't seem crazy or anything. Just genuinely nice. Her whole family was like that. Made me want to move to Canada. If it just were a little bit warmer...

Give it a few years...

Americans cant have empathy for refugees and a sense of community? Really?

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