Ask HN: How do you avoid staying too late at work? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: How do you avoid staying too late at work?

25 pointsfulldecent43 comments

How do you avoid the urge to stay later at work than you should be staying?

If you are talking about being overburdened by too much work, here's my thoughts:

I prioritize. I get as much as I can done in my usual 40 hours, maybe 50. Anything left undone apparently wasn't high enough priority, so gets dropped. I either delegate it or ignore it.

I used to put in long hours and scramble to do lots of extra work. My company pays me for 40 hours a week, so they get the highest value work I can do for those 40 hours.

If you're not using discretion and simply ignoring some things, you're not working effectively, you're being an automaton with no judgement. There's a lot of low-value things people request you to do or be involved in at work. You have to blow some of it off or you're wasting your own potential and time.

-- Don't anybody read into this I'm some kind of time-guarding jerk at work. This is my general mindset, but being practical and adaptable is important, as is being sure your manager agrees with your assessment of priorities.

You get up at the time your contract says and you go to home.

Its a matter of expectations, if you usually stay late, people will expect that you will be there. Its like if your boss gives you 10 things to do and you accomplish all of them, the next time it will give you 12 things to do, then if you stay late working on those things and you deliver the next time your boss will give you 14 things, because he is measuring your throughput of work

The solution is simple, just stand up and leave and talk to your boss about the amount of work so he can hire someone to help you or delegates the work to other person.

This. Routine is the key. I always come to work on time, but I always leave on time as well. I always take my lunch break at the same time. People get used to your discipline and stop coming to you 10 minutes before the end of work with some trivial issues.

> You get up at the time your contract says and you go to home.

Are you American?

The vast majority of the American workforce is "at will." There is no contract.

> he solution is simple, just stand up and leave and talk to your boss about the amount of work so he can hire someone to help you or delegates the work to other person.

This is exceedingly dangerous. You are telling people to go to their bosses and say "hire someone to do the job you hired me to do."

Source: practicing attorney.

I'm not from USA.

I don't understand why is it dangerous, can't you say that in the USA to your employer? It's just asking for help because you're overwhelmed with your job.

> I don't understand why is it dangerous,

Because you may get fired. Before this devolves into a philosophical argument, I am not saying this is right, or that there aren't many valuable employees and skill sets who are less at risk of this sort of termination, or that there are many good and valuable ways to negotiate these things with your boss. But the advice of simply stating you get up from your desk to leave at the end of your contract time is dangerous. This is highly context dependent.

Communication is good. Put in the effort, go the extra mile and tell your boss your are overwhelmed. Don't just get up and go home at the stroke of [5:00] or [6:00] or whenever it is.

Disclaimer: this is in no way a legal opinion and I am not your lawyer. If you need a lawyer, get a lawyer, especially if you have an employment related dispute. Further, I am not advocating a harsh managerial style - I am not advocating anything, except to not unnecessarily risk your jobs.

That's exactly, what I'm doing in my current job. Just come on time and leave on time as well. Remember, "there will be always work for us to do", hence you need to set the expectations to your boss.

Get married and start a family. Seriously when you become a husband/father (or wife/mother) your priorities will (should) shift to your new dependents. It's not only about the money anymore, quality time becomes just as important.

In lieu of that, just start an activity that demands your time and is as (if not more) important to you as work such as coaching a kids team, helping out at the YMCA or YWCA, etc...

When you hit the point of saying "if I just work one more hour I'll solve this", remind yourself that working long hours is counter-productive. And remind yourself of all the times you came in to work in the morning and figured out the impossible problem from the day before in just 5 minutes.

(Long version: https://codewithoutrules.com/2016/02/24/go-home-already/)

It's all about managing expectations. If your boss gives you a task and budgets 5 days to it, then do it within the 5 days. If you know up front that there is not enough time budgeted for it, then raise that. Your manager will like you better for it. If you finish early that's good, get started on your next task or learn something but don't tell anyone. Better yet, if it is a repetitive task figure out how to make that task more efficient. If you are a programmer - write a script, if you are a lawyer/accountant - develop a pre-filled template, etc. Doing this will set expectations from your boss, manager of what you can and can't achieve in the timeframe given, and whether more resources are needed. I can't speak for Americans, but Australia has a contract for specific hours - around 37.5 hours in a week is the government standard. To that end we can be upfront with managers/bosses about expectations and resources and usually it is dealt with.

Source: ScrumMaster and developer

> If you finish early that's good, get started on your next task or learn something but don't tell anyone.

Why? Is this because it will raise expectations?

I wish upon everyone a working relationship where honesty has more value, for all involved, than "don't tell anyone" tactics.

Realize that sometimes taking a break and going home actually helps you solve problems better.

Understand that you can never ever finish work. Work will always be there and we should not define how successful we are by how much work we do.

How many problems have you solved at home in the shower while shampooing your hair?

I do all my best work in there and I can't even bill for it.

I have occasionally billed for time spent in the bathtub. I didn't go into the tub expecting to be paid for it, but once in a while I have a eureka moment, get out, write down a solution to a long standing/hard problem, bill a half hour for it, and go back to the tub.

It's rare, and I only bill it when it was genuinely valuable, but it's not totally out of the question!

This sounds like some kind of contracting relationship. I have a regular daytime job, but contract in my own time, and I find that that is a much better construction for me to weigh putting in more time, getting paid, versus taking my rest (or whatever you want to do when not working). That might not work as well for others, though. My day job, at fixed pay, excites me a lot, which is a reason to put in too much time. I have no over-demanding managers, forcing me to stay late, like others may have. So, here's at least three powers that may make someone stay late, each with its own countermeasures, all very dependent on that individual or their situation. I'll repeat them: excitement/involvement, money (hourly rates), and scare of being fired.

At the end of the day, it comes from one's own motivations and I do feel your sentiments regarding the 3 powers you mentioned.

1. Excitement/involvement is tough to manage but at the end of the day, if you're burned out, the excitement dies down. At least that's what happened to me. And as mentioned, there are times when I didn't think of how to solve a problem that the solution came to me.

2. I had to overcome the obstacle of money and the fear of being fired. In the past, it used to affect me greatly but I've learned how to deal with it over the years through chanting (meditation), philosophy and other activities.

If you want to leave at a consistent time, one technique is to make a fixed-time commitment after work, eg, schedule the gym from 6-6:30 M-F. Then stick to this consistently and make it clear to those you work with.

Never set the expectation that you'll work any more than 8 hours. If you're learning something and feel like you need to put in more then go home learn where you're comfortable. Alternatively find an employer that values you. I made the mistake once of working over consistently. I was stuck at a place that I was working 14-16 hours a day (Come in at 5AM leave at 9PM), just to get the work assigned to me done. I found another employer that valued me and my time.

Here is one way:

"OK, enough of the office; I'm going to go home and work from there. Beat traffic, get home before dark."

But then not actually end up working from home.

You didn't tell why you feel an "urge" to stay later at work.

My advice is to come into work early.

The tech field is especially lax in time. The majority of my jobs have been 10-6, where my current job is "come in sometime before 10 and 11".

The problem with this is you feel you now need to stay late into the night. You came in at 10:30? Well, I guess it's understandable to be here until 7. This is how paradigms eventually shift to allowing yourself to work until 8pm or later, even if it means you've now worked a 10 hour day.

I agree with a few of the commenters here who talk about routine.

If you show others that you are coming in late, then they expect you to work late.

If you show others that you are there before they are, then it's more reasonable in their minds that you leave before they do.

If you continually show up early to work, then people will not even question or think about it that you leave early (or on time).

Two things happened around the same time so I can't say for certain which had the bigger impact. I was a habitual over worker. I would try to beat rush hour on my drive in, and leave after it was over. Then, shortly after the birth of my son, we gave up the second car and I started taking the train to work. Now instead of waiting for traffic to die down, I have to get out right on time to catch my train. When my boss tried to give me little jobs at the end of the day i could say, "Sorry have to catch the train." Eventually my boss got use to it and stopped trying to give me work just as I should be leaving - leaving me emails for the morning instead, and balance is much improved.

I don't. When that urge comes up, I indulge it, because it means I'm in a flow state and I'm getting a lot done. But eventually I'll get hungry, or finish mining out that particular vein of opportunity; then the work will stop feeling so compelling, and I'll leave.

The rest of the time, I leave work at a reasonable time because I have lots of other things I want to do with my life, and if I spent all evening at work I wouldn't get to pursue them.

I get up and walk out the door.

If they want to fire me for working 8 - 8.5 hours, have fun with that because I don't want to take part in being overworked. My productivity goes way down after a while so there is no point in me grinding.

Humans have a limited capacity for everything and need to recharge. Even if you love the work, you need to take a break, eat, sleep, etc.

My commute time inflates by 30-50% (and no seats!) if I don't leave AT 5. My manager knows this. I tried leaving 5:30 a few times, the 2-3 hour trips made my weeks hell. Previous jobs I just walked out the door, at a startup too.

Thanks everyone and this is great advice. Most of the thoughts here are about standing up to a manager.

In my case I am the manager. A big part of my urge to stay is I feel I do not want to leave before employees. I arrive early and on schedule. But my staff has flex time and they can get here whenever. So basically I am working a shift and a half.

The sad reality is that people don't work nearly as hard when I am not around. So that is the thing that is motivating me.

Also employees ask me these stupid questions at 5pm. Usually I really want to answer because I feel my role is to help them under any circumstance.

I feel you. As a manager/leader, I feel the same way.

Here's how I would deal with the situation: You work as hard as you can and support your team as much as you can. At some point, you'll need to build their trust and respect such that they will be willing to work even when you're not there.

You'll have to learn new ways to motivate your employees to work as hard. It's about them learning how to let them take ownership/responsibility over tasks.

With regards to 5pm questions, that's the reality of managers/leaders. We're there to support and assist as much as we can.

If they can feel that you're there for them, they will work for you. Sometimes it might take you bending your back for their needs. Talk about non-work related stuff. Figure out what motivates them and makes them excited and help them get to where they want to be.

Some people may never feel motivated to work beyond what their tasked to do and that's ok. You do what you can but at the same time, know that you can't change everyone. People have to want to change themselves. You're just there to guide.

I have a low paying, tedious, non-technical job, so I have no such urge. I work to pay the bills, I write code on the side because I enjoy it and now and then make some money.

Life is too short to care more about making someone else rich than you should.

I have interests outside of work that I enjoy.

if i had such an urge id book a therapist at 5pm every day until the urge went away, if only because the habit to leave the office was formed by having to see the therapist

I have small children. Often, they need to be picked up from where they are. Not infrequently, I do another hour of work on the laptop after bedtime, but that too is limited my awareness that one or the other of my kids is likely to wake me up in the middle of the night and I'll be useless the next day if I don't go to sleep soon.

Girlfriend and/or dog

I'm contracted for 39 hours and work at most 40 hours - to be honest I'm usually brain dead every night after work, and mindlessly indulge in tv until I fall asleep at 10pm ready to start the day anew.

We scheduled family dinner at 5:15 and then I told all my coworkers about it. They think it's cute and appreciate that I'm not staying later than them anymore.

Is there a way? My boss uses me as a driver, so I am here early and sometimes am not off until 7:00. The no overtime is great!

Either your boss is paying you legally or not. If not being paid legally, why do you not feel you can advocate for yourself, or find a different job? You may have reasons, I'm just curious. You should not have to drive your boss around for free. Or work more than 40h a week without overtime pay, unless your position is exempt from overtime.

I work from home so there is zero chance I will stay too late at another location to work.

Come in early and kick ass.

Umm, no. That defeats the purpose. The purchase is to work a reasonable amount of hours, like 8.

A large percentage of the tech workers I have worked with get into the office rarely by ten and often much later around noon. Then they "stay late" until eight or ten or even midnight but when meals and breaks are accounted for they barely put in eight hours of work. An alternative is to arrive at a more traditional work start time and minimize time spent on meals and breaks. This is not about spending more time working but rather about allocating time carefully and densely in order to have a good chance of not staying late.

Have a life outside of work

I rarely have such urges

WFH

Reply on news.ycombinator.com