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Comment by rfrank | Hacker News Reader

> What made you think I agree with all of their bias?

Your defense of it.

Their entire organization is biased, just like Fox or Breitbart. Why are they "committed to the truth" when conservative outlets are "propaganda"? Do you think conservatives view NYT/CNN bias as "truth telling" or "propaganda"?

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Personally I view Fox and Breitbart as being on a scale of propaganda with Brietbart near the extreme end and Fox somewhere in the middle. But while I don't always agree with The Wall Street Journal or The Economist I don't think they're anything like Fox/Breitbart. There's a difference between bias and propaganda.

> There's a difference between bias and propaganda.

Then actually define it, and provide examples of them being literal propaganda. Otherwise the discussion is just a political version of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

No, facts exist whether you like them or not.

I think this sort of demand seems reasonable at face value but really has a reductive effect on the conversation. I don't have a catalog of infractions I keep to draw from for Internet debates so I can either compile a list that you might ignore or nitpick apart or just let the conversation die here. I don't need a list or carefully defined criteria to come to the conclusion that a news organization is a propaganda outlet because I'm just some asshole nobody who's just trying to make a point that it's not some party or philosophical allegiance that determines how I view a news or media organization.

Might want to give this one a shot.

http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

Is there a specific section you think I should focus on? I think his point about agreement being sort of brief and shallow while disagreement forces you to explore ideas that haven't is oddly relevant here. Despite the fact that we're disagreeing even a lively debate between us would actually be shallow because "is Fox News/Breitbart propaganda?" is a dead horse beaten until it's dust.

You might be a special exception but I assure you that I, like most people, wouldn't be adding additional insight at all. I'm more than happy to let other people do it, I just don't see the point in participating. I just wanted to let you know that thinking it's just some liberal bias against conservatives that makes people think Fox and Brietbart are propaganda is pigeonholing these folks into a very convenient "idiot" bucket. If it was that simple they'd think that about every conservative media/news organization.

You should be able to define the words you use, when you want to dismiss conflicting viewpoints with them. Your inability to define what propaganda and bias mean makes the conversation impossible. You have no bar, other than your feelings, for what makes something propaganda. Which is stupid. I just wanted to let you know that thinking it's just some conservative bias against liberals that makes people think NYT and CNN are propaganda is pigeonholing these folks into a very convenient "idiot" bucket.

It is challenging to draw a bright line between journalism that contains some bias and outright propaganda.

I'm willing to put forward a simple test: does the source publish retractions and corrections?

I would guess that the NYT does and Breitbart does not.

> It is challenging to draw a bright line between journalism that contains some bias and outright propaganda.

And that's why it's really stupid to dismiss outlets you don't like as propaganda.

You're arguing with an example of the blindness that resulted in the public's trust of the media hitting an all-time low and Trump getting elected. One kind of person reasons forward from principles; another kind of person reasons backward from desired results, i.e. that the ends justify the means. It seems that they are simply unable to recognize their own bias, a kind of willful self-deception.

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