Ask HN: Am I being exploited? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Am I being exploited?

13 pointsthrowawayaya44 comments

Hi there! (using a throwaway)

I currently work as a student engineer at state school in California being paid 15$/hr. After much thinking, I currently feel that I am being underpaid and exploited for my skills. Currently, I'm building a service that should entail a production ready app in iOS, Android, website, and server setup as well as website/app design and logo creation and branding all by myself. The due dates the present want me done within 4 months, with an hour cap of 18 hours a week. Originally I wanted to join because I needed the money, but I feel like my workload seems ridiculous.

I was instructed not to negotiate since I was a student of this school and they will not pay me higher. I'm confused on where to go from now on, other students who will have to take on my work will be exploited too.

Am I actually being exploited, then what do I do?

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No.

You are only being exploited if you: 1. Are "worth more" in the industry (you could get paid more for the same work) 2. Are unable to take another higher paid position for whatever reason.

Both of these items must be true.

If you have heard of others paying more, that doesn't count... the only way you can reasonably claim to be "worth more" is if you have actually been offered a position at a higher pay rate. Then you can either take that position, or work for yourself, or turn it down because you like your current team. A situation such as yours is only exploitive if the employer is underpaying you AND blocking your ability to transfer.

If it's too much to get everything done in 18 hrs / wk, then it doesn't get done. They can increase your hour cap or your deadline. These discussions are sometimes hard, but they're not complicated.

What you fail to realize is that you are, right now, gaining the most valuable thing you can: experience. Though most tech shops claim to be a meritocracy, you'll discover very quickly that experience is very highly valued by hiring managers... maybe even more than it should be. So you're making $15/hr, and could be making $20 / $50 / whatever. Treat this as a learning experience to sharpen your skills and seriously buff your resume.

You need to optimize for learning. NEED TO. This is the wrong time in your career to optimize for paycheck.

I think this is the answer. Look at all the recent threads about grads struggling to get a job. The experience you'll get from this sounds golden. Then again it probably doesn't hurt to ask for more money. And learn to manage their expectations about what is achievable. One way is to come up with a roadmap you are comfortable with for 4 months and present it to them. Also maybe get quotes from experienced devs and show how much cheaper you are.

I think replying to this either way will make me look arrogant or dumb. I think I am more worth in the industry, I've secured an internship that pays triple. I thank you for the input for the other thing though - I've taken your idea and talked to management about at least hiring more people seeing how they won't budge on a raise. (but are willing to hire more people?)

I've secured an internship that pays triple

Unless you're under some kind of contract, you have your answer. What is holding you to this current job?

> What is holding you to this current job?

I'm not sure if this is the case, but OP may not be aware that some employers offer part-time remote internships, or the employer who OP interned for at triple his current pay may not have offered them.

OP, if you read this and this is the case, I went through a similar experience. My first internship was for a Silicon Valley company over the summer, and then I went on to work as a System Administrator for a college when I got back to school at ~33% of what I made over the summer. However, for my next internship, I worked for a different company and when I went back to school we agreed that I would work part-time remotely. I still made the same per hour as when I was working 40 hour weeks, I just worked fewer hours. I had a bunch of friends who did the same thing - interned for a company for a semester and then returned to school and worked for them part-time for a lot more than they would have made if they'd worked for the school.

Hiring a more experienced person to help you sounds like a great idea, actually. Your pay is not be based entirely on actual merit, but must also take risk into account. Once you've demonstrated the value, then you have the power to command more pay. In my experience though, you get the big raises when you switch jobs.

This is totally correct.

back in 2001 when the tech bubble busted, and no one was hiring, I didn't have much work experience, so I worked for a company for Free, 10-15 hours a week for 9 months, just for the work experience. I didn't consider it exploitation, because I there were no other options out there at the time. However, i did get out of there as soon as an opportunity presented itself.

If you can find a better $$ rate, you should take it right away.

See, if you can get an entry level position at snap chat, I hear they pay like 9000$ a month for interns!!!

What you're describing isn't merely exploitation; it's illegal in the US because it is.

Bullshit. If your replacement at your current employer would need triple pay or quadruple, then you are being exploited or at least in a strong position to renegotiate.

IMHO one of the following things is at play here:

1) They have low-quality standards, so they expect something that barely works

2) They don't expect you to actually deliver, only to drive the project from point A to point B, but they didn't tell you just in case you could drive the project to point C (that could be a little exploitative, but that doesn't really matter).

3) They don't care about the result because it's part of a program that runs for <reasons>.

I would bet for (3). Either way, If I were you, I'd just do my best within the constraints they gave me, trying to fulfill the minimum requirements and then move on without taking this too seriously. Take this as a learning experience, at this point you shouldn't care about the money, under regular circumstances. Take it as a learning experience.

Very good comment and this is something that employees pick up more as they become more commercially savvy.

If you are paid hourly, then you shouldn't worry about the workload. What does the cap of 18 hours/week mean? Are you supposed to work beyond 18 hours, just not being paid? Otherwise, just work 18 hours/week, and if the project doesn't get done in 4 months, it's not your problem.

Just don't agree to both a deadline and an hours cap. That would definitely be exploitation.

You aren't allowed to work more than 18 hours, the university won't let me. They just expect it to be done, else I'm fired and get a bad reputation at the school and future hiring.

By "fired", do you mean expelled?

Fired as in just fired, though I'm not sure, since they are well connected to the school's main operation.

If you decide to continue with this job, take it as an opportunity to learn two essential professional programming skills: estimating effort and managing expectations.

"production ready app in iOS, Android, website, and server setup as well as website/app design and logo creation and branding" in 4 months at 18 hours a week is an unreasonable scope of work, at least for me. I would not be employed under these terms unless my hourly rate was in the thousands or tens of thousands, and even then I would be concerned about the impact of four high-stress months on my health.

You are going to encounter these kinds of unreasonable requests throughout your career. The ability to explain in layman's terms and plain English why this isn't possible and to present an alternative is invaluable and it's part of what you're being paid to do. It is always better to risk disappointing the client in the beginning, by having this conversation, then it is to disappoint them in the end, by failing to deliver.

I think that's a good skill to know - thanks :)

On one hand, 15$/hr, amount of work required, 18hr/week cap, sounds like the job I had while in college.

On the other hand, 18/hr week cap and arbitrary hard deadline sounds borderline exploitative. But to me, it sounds much more like a mismanagement.

If I were in your shoes, I would first go to the person responsible for continuation of my employment and talk about the possibility of you not handling the work-load. It might be that this person doesn't even know what is asked of you, but would be able to tell you things about the process of evaluation of your work, possibility of hand-over, extending of your employment, when would they terminate it e.t.c

Then I would get the person who represents the people whose problem you are solving with your software, with the one who created the product specification (i.e. you got that it has to be iOS, Android,e.t.c from some piece of paper, hopefully with more specifics and a known author :-) and as well as person that is responsible for the progress of your work into the same room. Might be a single person. Might not :-)

Now I would try to negotiate reduction of scope (i.e. I would probably want to drop the iOS and Android apps and focus on the web/backend, focus only on the biggest pain points that you want to solve).

This is why it would be good to have some user representative in the room, maybe you learn that EVERYBODY has iPhones, and nobody would use a web-browser on their phone, or some other arbitrary thing, that would help you reduce scope/prioritize features. I would try to leave in just the Minimum Viable ;)

Then I would setup probably weekly meetups with the person that the work will be completed so that we would see if the deadline needs to be extended.

Your situation kind-a reminds me of a weird fan-fiction about the second Death Star and its project manager [1]

[1] https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11685932/1/Instruments-of-Destr...

Shoot. I only made $8.75/hr doing development work at my university. It was excellent experience and once I hit the market I was much better prepared than those who hadn't done any real world work yet. Look at it as a good learning experience, enjoy your time, and look forward to the massive increase in pay once you move on.

No. From my point of view, not at all. From my point of view you are actually at a very priviliged position. A few other comments that you curiously did not reply better explain why there is no exploitation here.

That said,I am not one of those people that think that privileged people should not complain. At all. Every has the right to try to improve their life. In your case, I believe you should practice negotiation. Try negotiate your salary. If dont get a raise and dont get a better offer elsewhere, maybe you are earning a fair salary. Try negotiate the deadline. Explain why is asking too much to do all that in 4 months. Maybe you will learn that their expectations of quality are much lower than yours. A logo and a website can be made on one morning if there no expectations at all.

Or maybe you will end up your negotiation with a raise and more time.

I think you are right, but I did not reply because HN blocks constant replies to posts for new account. I do acknowledge very privileged to be in this position, and I am actually fine with the pay for now. The reason why I asked this question was because someone told me I was being exploited for my labour, I soon realized that it seems like I was. I wanted to see if I could do anything about it seeing how there will be a point where a student who actually needs a job like this would become overworked by the weird requirements of the build.

> someone told me I was being exploited for my labour

Some people believe the employer-employee relationship is intrinsically exploitative, so that's not saying much.

I don't think you're being exploited although you are probably being mismanaged. I'd just take the job for what it is. You gain experience, you work your 18 hours a week until the deadline, and if you aren't done in that time, it's not your problem.

I wouldn't necessarily use the term "exploited" (I would save that for a different sort of situation), but you've certainly been put in an untenable position.

It sounds to me as if the problem here is not the pay grade but the expectations. Did you know what those expectations would be when you agreed to the project?

What you're expected to get done in the designated number of hours sounds to me as if it would be unreasonable at virtually any pay rate. Assuming the app you're building has a certain level of complexity, I wouldn't expect those results in that time frame from anyone less than the most experienced professionals. And it's obviously unreasonable to expect you, as a student, to work at an equivalent velocity.

My guess would be that the people in charge of this project don't actually understand the work involved in it. Either way, I would run, not walk away from it.

> state school

That's what I noticed. I really don't expect state schools to undergrad student workers much. So I wouldn't really worry about it too much. If you can find another job that pays more elsewhere, take it. But I'm really not surprised at all with your pay.

$15/hr for "I'm building a service that should entail a production ready app in iOS, Android, website, and server setup as well as website/app design and logo creation and branding all by myself"

YES, this company is using you for cheap labor

Can I ask how could I get about changing this situation? I go to the school that is employing me, I feel like any complaint will just impede my graduation or education. thank you :)

If you think you are worth more, find another job to pay more. Either use as leverage or take the other job.

For what's it's worth, I think I made like $12 in college updating crappy php college websites. It was fine, gave me some resume material. Gotta start somewhere.

I was in this situation in college as well. I was writing code for minimum wage as part of work-study program to help pay my tuition.

I looked at the larger picture. I was gaining experience. It wasn't costing me gas as I was already at the college each day. I worked with great people that I still communicate with to this day. I was offered a full-time job at the college after I graduated.

Change is good, if you are unhappy - simply go somewhere better.

Yes. Don't comply with any exploitation ever. They're exercising unstated leverage over you because you're a student at their university.

Much akin to medical students undertaking a residency, no?

It isn't directly related to my graduation (I never needed to work to gradaute) more like I took a job at the school, like a librarian, but instead a developer.

underpaid yes.. but you are getting experience which is more valuable then another $10 an hour.

Given that you could make $6k a month interning at facebook doing way less then yes you are being taken advantage of

Enjoy the project though that's alot of experience especially for your own ideas

It happens. Gain experience. Move on. I worked for a tyrant for $12/hr fixing bugs and adding new things to the program. Over a year and a half I did this. It was Visual Basic 6.0 and this job I had about 6 years ago. I was severely underpaid, especially for putting up with his crap, but with no money and student loans @ $40k, I had to do what I had to do. No sense in just quitting a job without having another lined up.

So what did I do? I always kept looking for a job during my time there, but in my time there, I did what I had to do, acquired all the knowledge I needed, added everything in detail on my resume -- for example, I made the program more user-friendly and boosted our sales by over 200%. It definitely looks good on my resume and I'm able to talk about it in interviews. I was pretty much hired to make the program more user-friendly and that is what I did, and it drew so many new customers. That was about the only benefit to me, I did not actually see any raise for my efforts.

In fact, it was not until I found another job, making just $16/hr when he offered me double my salary. I think I tried it for about a week before I realized I was going to suffer immensely: "I'm paying you to do this job... why.. how..." and all that kind of stuff. He also installed spy software on my computer to make sure I was doing the job. That's the kind of boss he was, a micromanager, complete with paranoia. Read more about that here: http://www.confessionsoftheprofessions.com/the-opportunity/

I think most of us... are never making the salary we actually want and most of us probably won't unless we are working in Silicon Valley OR we run our own business and charge our own prices. Companies are certainly after profit, but rather than always try and ask for the salary you want: see what else the company will offer you.

For example, I had gotten a job with another company that paid a pretty good wage, far more than the $12/hr, and they also gave me a company phone which I don't pay for, 3-4 weeks vacation + sick days, and I had only lived about 10 minutes from the job.

That first job, I may have disliked, but I knew it wasn't going to last forever because I am a college graduate with skills that are in demand. I'm a web developer and a programmer. Always learning new things. What company would turn away a person with college experience AND programming skills? I've expanded well beyond Visual Basic 6.0.

While working at your current company, build up your portfolio and your resume. Update your LinkedIn profile and get RECOMMENDATIONS ( http://www.confessionsoftheprofessions.com/useful-feature-li... ) Get some clients from freelance and have them write reviews about you. Any kind of experience you can get: write it down and turn it into something beautiful on your resume and if you have a portfolio, add it there too so you can have proof. Don't hesitate to take screenshots of your work.

That first job gave me all the tools and experience I needed. I even built a website for the boss which I took a screenshot of as well as screenshots of the areas of the program that I worked on and built the user interface. I left my name in the meta data as a creator of the website and it is still there over 6 years later! Definitely ensures no company questions that I actually built the website. It also gave me real world experience for understanding how to deal with an arrogant micromanaging tyrant boss.

My advice is this: Always aim for a price range of the salary you want to be making, within a $5000 range or so, ask for it, and negotiate a bit. Companies are after their own best interests, and if they can get you cheap, they will. They will take advantage of your services. If you want to ask for a raise after a year, which you probably should because that is normal, than at least have something to go on: build a case for reasons why they should give you a raise.

But do take into account what the company offers you besides money. You could also do what I do.. how I make the extra money I want to be making, although I'm still always working on it and not fully there yet: side projects, freelancing, etc. There are certainly ways to make money without asking your company for it. Maybe they have a set budget that they want to pay everyone. Just remember: Those making the highest salaries are usually looked at first when it comes to layoffs.

> It happens. Gain experience. Move on. I worked for a tyrant for $12/hr fixing bugs and adding new things to the program. Over a year and a half I did this. It was Visual Basic 6.0 and this job I had about 6 years ago.

That's not an argument. There is no reason for the op to accept being treated badly because you were. I was severely underpaid at my first job too, but I don't think it is right that others should be underpaid just because I was.

What makes you think someone with no real experience and half a degree is underpaid at $15? He may be overpaid.

I never claimed to have zero experience :)

Assume the value of Mr Throwaway's work to the institution is $X. We also know that Throwaway's total take home is $15/hour * 18 hours/week * 4*4.5 (nr of weeks) = $4860.

I claim that underpayment occurs when the ratio of pay to value of work produces is about one to five. I would estimate, given the description of Throwaway's assignment, that the value of the work is about $50k. Therefore, Throwaway's ratio of pay to value of work being one to ten means he is severly underpaid. We can argue about exact ratios and stuff, but fact is, $4.8k is shitty pay for the job he is asked to do.

1) Colleges do not hire students to do work at "market rate". That is never how it has worked. You get slightly above minimum wage to do some work. If you want market rate, go find a job off campus! No law against that (well perhaps for some VISA holders)

2) The better comparison, would be how much would this work cost to do form a body shop in India? I bet a lot closer to 5k then 50k. And honestly if he is anything like most college students I know, the India work may actually be better.

1) I didn't speak of any market rates. I spoke of the fraction of his take home pay in comparision to the value of his work. That fraction is exploitative.

2) Indian workers are likely also underpaid. I find that comparison irrelevant.

brianwawok, when I first started out, you could say my boss was some guy who hired me off the street and decided to take a chance on me. Was he wrong in his judgement of paying me $12/hr? Probably not. While I came with some knowledge and experience, it was mostly personal and non-professional. It took him about 3 months to get me ready and trust me enough to work in his software. While he did give me a small raise once I started doing that, it would be the only raise I had seen. While I was upset that he continued to pay me what he was paying me, considering I did live on a coast at the time, and the fact that in over a year, his customer base rose by thousands of companies using his product across the nation, I did not see any benefits for that, at least not monetary. But I am very grateful that he did take that chance on me, because it was he who gave me that "real world experience" to put on my resume and have every single company thereafter take me seriously as a programmer. This was a benefit that I had not foreseen, for sure, being young and at a college with too much debt, I didn't know any better.

I have also had this discussion with my girlfriend regarding salary, who also works as a web developer. We have discussed our salaries and pay worth and she pointed out this very thing: What makes us think we are getting underpaid for the amount of work we do? Surely, the company does not just randomly give out salaries and does their research on what a typical web designer would make. They likely figure their own costs of charging clients and the quota we need to meet, and pay us a base salary.

I suppose searching Indeed.com or a salary website does reveal the national average. But seeing something like that is always off. Lets take this the salary of a web developer/designer, which is $64k national average as of 2015. This salary varies greatly depending on where you live: Middle of the country tends to pay less, while the coasts tend to pay more, so are we really underpaid? Or overpaid? Or are we where we should be based on 1) geographical location 2) cost of living in geographical location 3) experience.

The other point is too: If someone is unhappy with their current situation, including the demands of a job vs. salary, than change it.

This is motivational. Whenever anyone feels like OP, just keep applying and looking for something else. Don't fall prey to the dues paying culture everyone wants you to suffer in... We no longer live in the 50's and all report to the local factory.

I think its funny... Everyone always says you don't need to go to college to code but immediately wants to impose a dues paying culture on everyone. Don't believe it. Don't fall for it.

People get lucky lots of times. Your best bet is too keep learning, network at meetups, and reach out to various companies offering any help.

Op finish school and look for a better job. Don't let them underpay you because they think you lack experience. Those arguments are foolish. Spend your nights/weekends reviewing job postings and reach out to people. You are the only one in charge of your future. Don't ever let someone else dictate your future or worth.

No.

You deserve exactly what you have right now. Nothing more, nothing less.

Read Napolean Hill's "The Laws of Success". A basic rule to use to succeed at life is:

- always render more service, and at a higher quality than that which you are paid for

Go out and do amazing things, constantly increasing your value and trading up

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