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Totally agree. Its the same as when a cop pulls you over. Being abrasive yet technically legally correct will just get the cop to royally shit on your situation.

See my relevant comment in the thread below:

https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=13947819&goto=item%3Fi...

you can put a human being in a uniform and give them authority but they're still a human being with all the complexity around ego and personality.

Absolutely, I think this question is much better dealt with bluntness.. call their bluff.

"Is this a salary negotiation? Lets talk about what I am worth."

What if they say you are worth what you were paid in your last job!

I don't know what kind of positions you are applying for but if a recruiter started antagonizing me like that I'd say "well it looks like we are not a good fit for each other. Have a nice day!"

If the applicant has the upper hand (i.e. if he has highly desired rare skills), this will not happen.

And if he doesn't because you are applying for the 99% of jobs that require no unique knowledge - then it is no loss for the recruiter to antagonise the applicant. The worst outcome is to get the subjectively second-best candidate out of a hundred who can all do the job just as well.

They were looking for somebody cheap. Bullet dodged.

Then why would I care to switch jobs?

Laugh at their crappy joke and start talking about what you delivered at your last job. Ask if cashmoney is tight, so what can they offer you besides salary.

The point is you are now firmly in negotiation mode, you just said so! But you have turned the question into what you are worth and what can they do to secure you.

But if they are really pushy and say, no seriously what did you get at your last job, push back. Seriously, is this an interview or are you just looking for market data... and always be prepared to walk out.

  > Another one is about my children. They are five and seven and finish school in the
  > afternoon, when they are collected by their after school service. Under EU law
  > interviewers cannot ask about my family life, but they do.

That's a huge red flag. Just asking the question in an interview situation leaves them open to unfair discrimination lawsuits, and you can easily get a negotiated settlement whenever they end the interview process.

I would find the time to have a brief consultation with a lawyer familiar with workplace & EEO law, and hear what they think.

Note that EEO law usually aren't regulated (companies don't need to show they are in compliance, and government agencies don't conduct spot checks with 'mystery candidates'); they have to fear the punishment of a settlement in order to abide with the law. If they're a tiny fly-by-night company they might just close up and re-establish elsewhere to avoid the suit.

How would one prove after the fact that they asked that question? They could just lie.

It's not criminal law, so there's no need for proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The burden is on the company to show that their interview process was in compliance e.g. with training material and documented feedback regarding the interview. A legit company would have no problem with that.

It's enough to say: I am an employee with children, I was asked about how my family obligations might affect how I would perform on the job, I was not given an offer because I was unfairly discriminated against.

Oh I know, but what can you do. It's your word against theirs. And if you were to tape the interview and successfully claim for unfair dismissal your name will get around the local IT industry pretty quickly.

Talk to a lawyer to find out what you can do; they will know the likelihood of a successful case, and most would be happy to at least do a free consultation for 30m-1h.

> And if you were to […] successfully claim for unfair dismissal your name will get around the local IT industry pretty quickly.

That's also unfair discrimination! But I'd be amazed if any settlement didn't include a gag clause to prevent the parties from commenting on anything related to it. If they did, then it's back to court for a breach of contract…

This isn't personal, it's just business. Companies use these tactics because candidates let them get away with it.

Do you need any one job that badly? Appreciate I am in a fortunate position but I was under the impression that there is more demand for developers than there is supply.

I think there's more demand for cheap developers. There's almost no demand for expensive ones imho.

I agree. And I would even go a step further. There shouldn't be demand for "expensive" devs. Because they aren't worth their dime. No one is.

Great devs should receive their worth as compensation. But that wouldn't make them expensive. That would just make them worth their dime.

But I totally get the point you were trying to make. Lot's of employers try to get one over and not pay you what you are worth.

How do you define "their dime", "expensive" and "what you are worth"? Because anyone could agree or disagree with this statement, depending on those definitions.

Interesting, my view has been almost the opposite. It's difficult to get your first developer role. But after a year of that and salaries increase quite rapidly. likewise with contracting / freelancing.

Of course my view of cheap and expensive may be different from yours.

I have found that with a shortage of developer talent companies are quite happy to pay to get staff who have no baggage that can affect productivity. In other words they'll pay you loads, but you better be in the office all the time, and maybe throw in a bit of overtime as well.

Most companies that claim to be family friendly are anything but.

I once named my salary and they thought it was so high that they said they'll need a salary strip to prove it before signing the contract.

The negotiation stranded on other points, so I never had to. But I had the gut feeling this practice is not legal (in EU).

It is not legal (data protection act). And my experience is the same. I tell the recruiter this and if they persist I politely end the conversation. There are enough jobs out there.

For software engineers maybe. Not everyone has that much choice, unfortunately.