Hacker News Reader

Comment by truthexposer | Hacker News Reader

Who is your target? If people want good tasting coffee, like a connoisseur, one would like the option of selecting the type of bean, where it is sourced from, how it's roasted, how it's ground, how it's brewed etc. People even vehemently oppose and stand by brewing methods, which to an ordinary person who doesn't care about coffee, wouldn't care about.

And if someone is buying instant coffee anyways, I doubt they care about the taste, or have preferred methods of milk/cream and sugar that would make any drown out any nuanced/bad flavor of ANY coffee.

View on HN

I don't have any evidence to support this other than anecdotes, but I would bet there is a much larger group in the middle than you imply. Plenty of people (myself included) appreciate good coffee without being fanatical about it. If you can offer the same taste as pourover without the work, I think you can capture quite a significant portion of the market. But then again, I could be overestimating that based on my own biases.

I'm in this portion of the market, and as such, I've subscribed to try it out.

Thanks for giving us a try!

I'm also in this segment of the market. However, only when pressed for time, which is during the week. On the weekends I take my time and brew pour overs.

This it the whole idea - we don't try to replace all your coffee rituals but rather help you drink great coffee when you otherwise wouldn't be able to.

I really love my coffee. I roast at home.

But if I need to travel or whatever I will pick up the best instant I can find.

If this is as good as they claim, I'd buy it.

Here's a short review by Oliver Strand, the coffee critic at NYTimes: https://nyti.ms/2mK8Frw

I start my day really early and work from home. My first cup of coffee is typically instant, and I can make this very quietly without waking up my family. I make a french press or pour over as my second cup once the kids are awake. I would buy the best instant coffee I can.

How would a French press wake up your kids?

I'm guessing an electric grinder for the beans.

I'm guessing it's the grinding the beans. Electric grinders are LOUD.

I grind my beans by hand :)

Not all of them are. At least my old one was way louder than my current. Same price range, too ($20-$30 I think, both were presents). I think I could use this one in my kitchen without waking up anyone. There's a good possibility that the old one was also noisier just because it was getting old and perhaps rattled a bit. Both are blade grinders, maybe burr grinders are louder by nature. I think if I really wanted it more quiet I could even wrap it in a towel or pillow :-p

Grinding his own beans? My electric burr grinder is pretty damn loud. My hand grinder is better, but a lot more work.

We hear this a lot. Same goes for me - I wake up before my wife and she's really happy when I'm drinking Sudden at home instead of grinding and brewing.

Coffee paraphernalia I use semi-regularly:

- Electric percolator with pre-ground Starbucks light-roast coffee (used to be Intelligentsia Honey Badger, before they souled-out to shitty Peet's).

- IKEA steel french press

- Nespresso (Original - not the supersize American version)

- Hario coffee hand mill for coffee beans (much rarely than before for time-availablity issues)

But, my go-to coffee on many days is the Folgers/Nescafé instant coffee.

If your instant coffee is really better (and I mean really) than what's on the market, and you can maintain consistent quality over time, I am in your target demographic.

Sign me up with a sampler!

Email me and I'll fix some for you

+1 for RussianCow's comment.

Our target customer is the average person who goes to Philz, Blue Bottle, Stumptown as well as Starbucks. These people aren't really buying instant coffee - they spend $2-10 on coffee per day. Some of them buy 2 x $5 latte drinks at a cafe. 100% of these people drink their coffee for the taste (although they have different taste preferences). The average person who goes to Blue Bottle daily actually doesn't know much about the beans, where it's sourced, etc. This is a big misconception that we uncovered last May. These people are Blue Bottle loyalists who love the brand, but they really just want a good cup of coffee that makes them feel good. They don't care what country it came from and they don't really know what light roast vs dark roast is.

This is actually a HUGE market of people. The middle is much larger than the fringes.

Btw, I've said this in other places on the thread - we completely love people who are super into coffee and I still think we make a good product for those really into it, but I just want to highlight the large number of people in the middle who we often forget to talk about.

My anecdote:

I think I'm in your market, too. Basically, enough people around me like good coffee that I'm spoiled. I'm not a big coffee drinker and not terribly picky, but I do have a taste for the good stuff.

I'm probably in the target market too - I've never really gotten into coffee because it tasted like crap. Except, occasionally I get a coffee and it's actually not bitter for once, and I'm like "oh that's actually kind of nice". But frankly, I'm not willing to go out of my way to pay $3.50+ for it. That really adds up over time.

If it were cheaper, I'd be all over it. Like, $1.50/cup, say. I mean, it still adds up over time, but by an order of magnitude less. Plus, it doesn't add up in terms of sugar like soda does. https://xkcd.com/1793/

...so, maybe I'm not in the target market just yet. Hopefully you'll get a decent economy of scale going. ^_^

The cool thing with instant coffee is that the whole concept is something that just works much better at scale - sourcing, roasting, brewing etc. We have solid plans to bring the cost down while improving the quality as we scale. At some point we'll build our own mega factory.

Is it really a HUGE market?

Here's some trends noted from the 2016 NCDT, which they do admit have only appeared within the past few years: "Behaviors that are slowly growing include lighter coffee consumption (slightly fewer drinkers and slightly lighter cups per drinker per day), drinking espresso-based coffee and drinking coffee out-of-home. Behaviors that are slowly declining include drinking traditional coffee and drinking coffee at home. Note that most of these shifts are occurring over the last few years."

Some other figures based on satisfaction of brewing methods found later in the report include:

86% very satisfied/satisfied with their drip coffee maker in 2016

94% with espresso

90% with single-cup

89% with instant

88% with coffee vending

It seems to me like there is a growing trend of more conspicuous consumption, as well as already high satisfaction across the board with people's status quo brewing methods.

It also seems to me like you're trying to make an instant coffee that carries with it the sort of branding that Philz, Blue Bottle, Stumptown, Starbucks, etc. have with physical locations which have the ability to foster certain groups of people, as well as convey aesthetic or ethical sensibilities through branding within the stores. It seems to me that this kind of branding is somewhat reliant on physical locations. I just don't buy into the assumption you make that you can target the same consumer that these places can.

Like, come on, the title of the NYT review on your coffee is: "Instant Coffee You’ll Actually Want to Drink", if that is any indication as to the mismatched conceptions people already have about instant coffee. It seems like you're climbing an uphill battle, considering the fact a cup of any other regular coffee costs about 7 cents, you're trying to sell instant coffee, but 36 times more expensive, based on branding and convincing people

You hit the nail on the head and this is what excites me the most about what we're doing! We are trying to carry a brand - and more importantly a set of values, intentions, feelings of positivity - without physical locations. We believe that we can use technology as a platform to do that. This is something that a coffee shop would never do. (Except maybe Starbucks since they have a strong tech focused team.) This (to me) will be our innovation in 2-3 years time.

Cafes, restaurants, and bars all make you FEEL something. If they do it well, you feel included, you feel part of a community, you feel like you belong. The average e-commerce experience doesn't do that at all - and yet we have so much information and data at our disposal to make the experience so much better.

However, we are a startup - that means (a) we aren't there yet, (b) we may not succeed - it's a risk - that's why we do what we do. We need support from the community to help us get there. But your comment captures exactly what we are trying to go out and do.

Regarding the market size - just some rule of thumb numbers - specialty coffee in the US is a $21B market. Instant coffee world-wide is a $30B market. Keurig got bought for $14B. I'm not a "we're taking over the world!" startup guy, but these are big numbers. A lot of people drink coffee in the US and the world. I've looked at a lot of different food segments and this one is big.

I don't know how common it is but I bring an aeropress and hand grinder whenever I travel. It's a ton of work and sucks. I drink pour over everyday (dial in temp, grind, ratio, and draw time for every new coffee), make iced coffee during summer, and subscribe to a coffee service. In theory, this would work better. I have no idea if the addressable market is big enough but I certainly wouldn't mind trying it.

I actually like to process of grinding and pressing. Bag space is the only downside, and the reason I don't take my aeropress and grinder with me when I travel.

Would love for you to try it - if you go here, you can do a 2-cup mini subscription as well: https://www.suddencoffee.com/?trial=true

We have a lot of customers who go through a similar experience. They use Sudden maybe 1-3 days a week when really busy and then pour over on others days when they have time. The pour over is still pretty enjoyable if you have the time.

I don't like your subscription model and I don't like how your positioning yourself in the market. It feels like the Nespresso (I think that's Keurig in the US with a similar model) of instant coffee.

But I would like to test a couple of cups of your coffee with friends. I never drank a good instant coffee so I really wonder how a good instant coffee tastes.

I'm not a fan of this model (yet) either. It's a big reason why I haven't cycle-"automated" other services I use. But if there's an on-demand sales model available, I'd love to try it out as well. I enjoy good coffee, but I also drink lots of bad coffee - I'd go broke on coffee alone otherwise.

I am the same.. as soon as something is a subscription model I am asking myself if I really want it.

But a cup of great instant coffee could be awesome. Especially when you are camping or on music festivals. These were the only times I was using instant coffee. If their price point stays the same you won't save much on their model.

From a price standpoint I don't know if there is something much cheaper than buying coffee beans and making your own coffee.

Can you elaborate on the earlier point above - what don't you like about the market positioning? (We aren't exactly going for Nespresso to Keurig, but really curious what rubs you the wrong way about that.)

Definitely won't save money compared to buying your own beans. It's the same as cooking - it's cheaper to grill a nice steak than buy one.

As a music festival goer - Sudden at festivals is about taste and speed. It tastes amazing. I usually pour it in a cold water bottle and shake it up (while in the middle of a performance) - really awesome. Definitely tastes better than festival coffee. Furthermore the coffee line at festivals is usually 30 minutes and they charge $5! This is obviously a personal pain point for me :-)

Festival coffee is horrible. If you get one. Normally I take my own gas cooker with me (made some noodles too) and make my own instant coffee.

That's the only time when I'm buying instant coffee, but all the ones I've tried were bad or horrible.

To the Nespresso or Keurig model: it is the single serving in plastic tubes which rubs me wrong and which reminds me of these models.

I'd prefer something like a Nescafe glass with better coffee (and it can be really small, like 20 servings or something like that). More flexibel and less waste. But I understand that I may not be your target group and that the model right now is working much better for you.

And the Nespresso model is working great for them and is preferred by many people I know - it's just not for me.

I do this as well, it's so hard to find good lightly-roasted beans in most places outside of big cities. (Even big cities in europe and asia seem to prefer a very dark roast everywhere)

Luckily there are so many great roasters with online stores now that getting fresh beans has never been easier.

I know lots of people who would pay for good instant coffee for a few weeks out of the year. I like to backpack and many people love their coffee and jump through hoops to get their fix in the backcountry. They would definitely be into good coffee that is portable and instant with just hot water.

Yes. You definitely need to market this to the backpacking crowd. They'll blow $100's on light, compact gear and then shove beans + grinder + aeropress on top... and then deal with the mess. Or at least, I will :)

The subscription model isn't great in this respect.

I travel up to a dozen times a year and backpack at least a couple weeks per year (in aggregate).

So that's 3x2x12 (3 cups per day of travel for each work trip) + 3x14 (backpacking trips). And probably another dozen or three here or there for random stuff (full-day bike rides, long drives, run out of beans @ work, etc.)

If I like Sudden, and especially if it's better than Starbucks drip served at airports, I'd use it for all of these things.

But I'm not going to+ sign up for a subscription because the vast majority of the year I'm happy with my espresso machine at home and decent drip at work. It's not like hygiene products where I just need a steady drip. My demand for instant coffee is very bursty. I expect that's true of others as well.

Maybe the logistics just don't work out without a subscription model, which is fine. And I certainly won't pretend to know what I'm talking about. But you're definitely losing one potential customer by forcing me to do a monthly subscription :)

Also, something is confusing in your ordering page. How many servings of coffee do I get for $19? I feel like that'd be useful information to have somewhere on the order page. Is it 8 cups of instant grounds? Or enough instant groups for 8 "cups" of coffee?

+ well actually, I am to try it out. But I won't mess with starting/canceling the subscription in the future. If you gave me a way to schedule things though, that would convert me for sure, assuming I enjoy the coffee.

It definitely does work well for backpacking and based on your amount of usage - sounds like something that could work well. Definitely have run some campaigns with a travel focus. However, the bursty demand you mentioned is what we hear from travelers and backpackers - that makes it a lot harder to serve (it's hard to get in front of you right around when you'll need it).

A big part of our mission is serving coffee for everyone's need - we have some people who use it camping, we have others who use it on the way to work. There is room for both.

With the 4-6 (+) shelf life you mention elsewhere on-thread, could you setup a seasonal subscription? "Camping time! Send me x ounces every: May [x] June [] July []"

Yeah that could definitely work. We're limited technically at the moment (e.g. can't really extend our platform to do things like that), but hiring a team to enable things like that.

What would be really neat is if we learned exactly how much you need and sent you the right amount at the right time.

Just let me schedule it. Trying to "learn" the right time and amount probably won't work well with such small datasets, and has a high risk of annoying your customers.

At most, send me a reminder email asking if I want to repeat last year's order.

Totally. If you can make instant coffee that tastes even okay, it would be revolutionary for backpacking.

Coffee is the most important thing my partner and I check to make sure we have before we enter the backcountry. And it's always instant, not out of preference or cost concerns, but weight.

I like good coffee: I don't care where it comes from. I like how I'm making coffee right now and where I get my coffee from, but this seems interesting for stuff like camping, hiking, and so on.

You can like good coffee and be interested in good instant coffee.

Bought 40, by the way, to give out. Will buy more if people love them.

Won't replace my whole-bean subscriptions, but will be a great way to get a good cup of coffee away from my home, and a great gift for my dad who likes instant coffee.

One suggestion: let us buy without a subscription, even if it costs 10-20 percent more. I don't want to subscribe to this service for the above reasons. :)

+1 for the non-subscription request. I've told a few people about Sudden few weeks earlier, and the subscription only option is a bit downer.

A pop-up store type experience in major coffee cities in N.America (including Canada pls.) would be a good way to get the word out about Sudden.

We've been planning a pop up for a while now. First one will probably be in SF, then hopefully around the continent!

I wouldn't mind good instant for traveling. I used to use the Starbucks stuff, but they seem to have abandoned it. I've also taken my grinder and a bag of beans with me, which is... less than ideal.

Yeah... I just can't be bothered by carrying those around anymore.

I would love to have this when I'm on a flight!

There might be some customer facing bigcos with a service component that might buy into this as a differentiator, especially in their premium cabins.

Even though I own pretty much every coffee brewing device I use Sudden at home every morning. It's just so much easier. It's never going to be better than a really well brewed coffee but it's just sooo easy and still really solid.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com