Ask HN: Love programming but hate my job at AmaGooFaceSoft, advice?

>> I feel very unmotivated and unproductive at work

We usually feel that when our potential is not satisfied and usually I think people who have worked on their own end to end projects in companies or have done start ups have a sharper antennae to know when they are wasting their time.

But it could also be that you are wearing the entrepreneur hat while being an employee, that can cause immense frustration. As an employee just be a great team player, do the work assigned and most of the times try to be in 100-110% range of your output and go home. Then work on your thing, where you wear the entrepreneur hat. This is a nice trick that works if you push yourself a bit; detach from the expectation of fulfillment from a job at least for now.

If nothing works, then you got to find a new job but before that you would seriously think on the type of problems you would enjoy working on, verify that with side projects or know that from your startup experience, apply till you hit the right job. And if job is not a cup of tea, then part time remote consulting and working on your own thing.

The point is you need to chill out and as others have pointed out, first be happy that you are in a job at one of the top 4, enjoy the 8 hours your spend there and use it as a leverage to course correct instead of throwing the baby out with the bath tub, though I know you won't do that. Good luck!

Give it 110% like Spinal Tap

Personally, I try to remain in the 120% range at all times and NEVER dip below 110%. In my experience, just settling at a 100% output level is a great way to get identified as a slacker. As a manager, I've cut many 100%s.

You "try to remain in the 120% range" and have "cut many 100%s"?

I can't tell if this is a serious post or just a subtle and very talented troll. I'm impressed.

Agreed. I'd lean slightly towards the troll, but maybe that shows that I'm detached from the new reality.

Comment history says troll.

>> just settling at a 100% output level is a great way to get identified as a slacker

Agreed. But I think the OP first needs to touch 100-110 and that in turn can cause him to either start enjoying the job (extrinsic motivation) or given his credentials be able to find a new gig before he is shown the door. He must take note from this important point you raise that he has a good enough runway as opposed to an infinite one!

>> As a manager, I've cut many 100%s. As a manager, I hope that you have given those 100%s, some course correction options and opportunity. Not being judgmental at all, so apologize if it comes across as like that.

Take the long view and enjoy yourself before you have kids. I felt the same way as you before, but in retrospect 1) you have plenty of time outside of work 2) the money you make is meaningful, you just don't know it yet.

Your rush has as more to do with your own psychological issues/needs (we all have them) than anything about your employer. Who are you trying to impress? What are you insecure about? What are you trying to make up for, or make right?

You're in a very good spot right now. Just take it slowly and don't screw it up. The time to quit is when you have your first customer and need more time to scale up. Otherwise quitting your job won't help you get there any faster.

My main regrets are mainly of the "you dummy, you should have just asked her out" type. As it turns out, you don't need a company for that.

What always makes or breaks a job for me isn't the job it self but the people I work with.

I hate to say it but friendly one upmanship, humor and socialization are what keep me going.

Are you friendly and social with your coworkers?

This is a really good point. The moments I've most enjoyed in my tenure so far have been when I had to come through for a colleague and I was able to do it. My manager and coworkers are really awesome, and we usually all eat lunch together, but yeah, I could definitely make an effort to strengthen those bonds.

100% Agree. The most interesting work in the world can become awful if you don't get along with the people you work with -especially your manager. Getting along with your colleagues and having a great manager can make even the most horrible work tolerable.

> 1) How can I find ways to enjoy my current work more and provide more value for my current employer?

Start reaching out to senior leaders in the organization-- group heads, directors, VPs for a friendly get acquainted/talk-shop coffee meeting. You'll want to be attuned to corporate politics, be diplomatic. When appropriate-- ask if they need any particular help-- areas where they're struggling? priority projects? Spec ideas that need nurturing?

There's huge value in helping senior leadership get what they want. It also affords you a unique opportunity to peek into their 30K FT world view.

Thanks, this is good advice. My immediate manager is awesome and has given me lots of opportunities to work on this kind of strategic project, which I haven't taken advantage of. I guess I've been worried about setting high expectations that I'm not motivated enough to deliver. But if I got in the position where I had committed myself to something concrete, my motivation might rise to meet the challenge.

Unless you become your own boss it will be the same everywhere you go. And even if you did become some successful entrepreneur, different problems will arise.

Learn to live in the moment and be thankful for what you have. If you are working at AmaGooFaceSoft, then you are one of the blessed people in this world, the best of the best. It doesn't get better than that.

Sorry you're not enjoying your job.

In general, it sounds like you enjoy smaller places and a larger variety of work where you have more ownership over your work. I'd guess you might be happy at a startup of < 20 people and there are lots of startups that size that would be happy to pay you a salary.

If you're at Facebook, feel free to message me – happy to (confidentially) meet up sometime and chat about ideas for how you might enjoy your work more.

Oh man, I wish I would have reached out before I left Facebook. I love your team-- it was the main reason I joined was to work closer with you and the other JS infra folks. I ended up feeling exactly like OP and moved on to a startup, without trying to fix my situation.

I admit though that I'm much, much happier know. I do always ponder what life would have been like had I worked harder at joining your ranks!

If you might find it helpful still, my inbox is open. :)

> 2) When choosing my next job, what job/career alternatives should I consider, assuming I don't have the resources to try to build another bootstrapped startup right now? I'm ok taking some risk if necessary but not "you might work for two years and end up with nothing" level of risk.

What's your side project? (Can you describe it in general terms without specifically identifying it?) How well might it align with an existing company? Can you think of a company that would pay you to work on it, either full-time or as a major component of your job? Have an off-the-record conversation with people associated with that project who work elsewhere; see if someone might hire you. (Consider both the "doing it as a paid project" angle and the "Open Source it and get a paycheck to work on it" angle.)

If your side project is something people want, getting a medium or large company to pay you to work on it seems entirely plausible.

Side project is an app to help people overcome addictions. I haven't released it publicly and am unsure if it will be monetizeable and/or of interest to a larger company. But yeah, if it gets any traction turning that into a job is my plan "A". Based on the outcome of my last startup though, I'm also interested in plan "B"s. :)

That depends entirely on the company or organisation. Perhaps you can find a not-for-profit that works with recovering addicts? While it may not be monetisable from a sales perspective, it may still have value and draw funding from other sources.

Being in a mundane job and checking out at 5 has it's benefits - you have both the time and the energy to focus on the projects and people you actually care outside of work hours. You also don't have to worry about money.

Your instincts may push you into a small startup where your work has immediate impact and feedback, but there's a space between 10 employees at 100K employees. I used to be in consulting (at a software company) and I worked with everybody from small startups that wanted to partner to companies with 200K+ employees. I tended to enjoy working the most with companies with 1K-10K employees. Those had interesting problems, interesting people, a sensible pace of work, and a somewhat tolerable amount of processes and bureaucracy. 50K+ employees almost always felt like I was in a satire. With really large companies (100K+), I came to understand how they could layoff 10% of the employees and still go on like nothing happened.

I'm not telling you to stay at your current job(don't stay at a job you hate!), but try to think about what you want your spare time to be like before make a move. Going to a place with a constant stream of challenging and interesting work might be nice at first, but after a while you might find your energy for side projects is zero.

There must be teams at the big 4 where you get the opportunity to do some interesting work and then go home and work on things that you are really passionate about. JSeymourATL provided a great answer - Assuming it is possible, network within the company and find a group that is doing something you find interesting. Unfortunately some companies are too political to be able to do this. Or you may have a horrible manager who will retaliate if you try to do this.

All that being said, some people need to be in charge. They need to be entrepreneurs. I know a brilliant engineer who owns a small construction company now because he'll do anything to not report to somebody else. He simply isn't built to have a boss and not have control of his work, or be obligated to VCs for a tech startup.

> Being in a mundane job and checking out at 5 has it's benefits - you have both the time and the energy to focus on the projects and people you actually care outside of work hours. You also don't have to worry about money.

I wouldn't describe my current work as mundane, for better or for worse. To be successful here long term I'd need to spend a greater percentage of my mental cycles on work than I've been able to muster so far. Not necessarily working long hours, but definitely have work projects be the thing my mind falls back to when I'm in the shower, if that makes sense.

I've thought about looking for a job as a line of business app developer in a mid-sized non-tech company. I'd probably make about half of what I do now, and everyone complains about how terrible the work conditions can be, but I'd have a lot more mental space to work on my own thing on the side. Biggest downside I see is the possibility that a position like that would have a long-term negative impact on my career. But in the current hiring environment not a huge concern.

> All that being said, some people need to be in charge. They need to be entrepreneurs.

I'm worried that this might be me. I try to imagine myself being happy even at a small startup with lots of autonomy, and I suspect that even in those circumstances I'd have a hard time feeling motivated to work hard to make somebody else rich. :(

>I wouldn't describe my current work as mundane, for better or for worse. To be successful here long term I'd need to spend a greater percentage of my mental cycles on work than I've been able to muster so far. Not necessarily working long hours, but definitely have work projects be the thing my mind falls back to when I'm in the shower, if that makes sense.

You might want to reflect on this - how are you evaluating "percentage of mental cycles on work?" Are you comparing it to other people in your team? Are you comparing it to a person who gets "extra outstanding" on their employee review or "good worker, happy they are here" on their employee review? I ask because it's possible to be a good employee, do good work, and get to the point where you can and do this without needing to think about work in the shower. Usually it takes 3-6 months at a job before you figure out how you can find that balance.

Is your perception about your commitment to your work skewed because you had 100% control before and you think that's how things need to be for you to be satisfied at a 9-5 job?

Also, IMO if you are thinking about your job in the shower you are not thinking about your side projects, something you are learning for fun, etc. It's hard to be focused on life outside of your job if you are thinking about your job outside of your job. A lot of people who think about their job in the shower do so because of misery and stress, not because they care about the work they do.

>I've thought about looking for a job as a line of business app developer in a mid-sized non-tech company.

Please think carefully about this. If you're the type of person who needs to care about your work, it's soul crushing to be in a job where you can't possibly care about your work. I've had "I don't care" types of jobs before where I did 2 hours of real work in a day. Those jobs are tolerable for a while if your manager leaves you alone for those other 6 hours. I had one of these, and I had the choice of asking my manager for more work (resulting in 6 hours of pointless busywork) or making it look like 2 hours of work took me 8 hours. In either scenario, I ended up going home frustrated and it was very difficult to change to a mode where I could be productive with life outside of work. I thought about work in the shower because I was miserable at work, and a shower meant another day was coming where I had to go to work.

Also, part of being inspired as an entrepreneur is being in an environment where you can be inspired. Many of these jobs are not that place.

> I'm worried that this might be me. I try to imagine myself being happy even at a small startup with lots of autonomy, and I suspect that even in those circumstances I'd have a hard time feeling motivated to work hard to make somebody else rich. :(

If it's you, don't worry about it - embrace it and figure out a way to make it work. :) It's better to realize you're an entrepreneur who is trying to find their way as an entrepreneur rather than being an entrepreneur who wishes they were somebody else. Or the other side, there are people who really are 9-5 people who refuse to admit this and constantly dream about being entrepreneurs.

You might not be able to figure out how to be an entrepreneur today, but that's okay.

It sounds like you already know what you want: to start your own company. But you are scared. You don't want to take the risk of leaving your company ("leaving a black mark on your resume"). If you are really passionate about building a company, you shouldn't give a shit about what your resume looks like or what people will think if you only worked at your current job for six months. That is just not something entrepreneurs should worry about, because you should always be 100% confident in your success, not worrying about what you'll do if you fail!

Also, consider the fact that even if you work on this company for six months and then fail/quit, employers won't think "this guy only worked at AmaGooFaceSoft for 6 months." They will think "this guy took initiative and spent 6 months building a cool product." You will positively impact your resume by building the business more than you will negatively impact it by leaving your current job before 1 year.

My advice is to ask yourself why you are scared. That seems like a signal that you do not believe in your product. If you are not 100% confident you can succeed, you shouldn't even start. Perhaps you should spend the next 6 months at your job refining the product idea and building up a bank balance (salary + options once they vest) to give yourself a 6+ month runway once you quit.

Also, don't be afraid of raising investment to cover your living expenses and the opportunity cost of spending the next 6 months at your job. You don't need to start with a million dollar round. You can raise enough to cover your living expenses ($100-250k) from angels via convertible debt. You could do this quite easily given your AmaGooFaceSoft background. Angel investors don't care how long you worked there, but they see it as a positive signal that AmaGooFaceSoft hired you in the first place. On the flipside, they would not see it as a positive signal if you are not 100% confident in your product.

Feel free to email me. I hate large corporations and am always happy to convince people to leave them.

> If you are really passionate about building a company, you shouldn't give a shit about what your resume looks like or what people will think if you only worked at your current job for six months. That is just not something entrepreneurs should worry about, because you should always be 100% confident in your success, not worrying about what you'll do if you fail!

I like a lot of what you said, but with all due respect I don't think I'm your intended audience for this pep talk. Remember, I just finished up two years running my own bootstrapped startup that was making no money -- most people wouldn't consider me particularly risk adverse. :) My life situation is now such that I can't afford another extended break from the workforce for a while at least.

Also, I think the "you should always be 100% confident in your success" (which I've heard from other people as well) line of thinking is kinda BS. We know most startups fail. Even most startups by smart, dedicated and hard-working people fail. For the two years I was doing my own thing, I didn't spend much time on backup plans, but I did keep my door open to recruiters and friends who approached me with other opportunities. Not doing so would not have made my startup any more likely to succeed, and by doing so I ended up with a soft landing at a prestigious and high-paying job, if nothing else. I think it's much wiser to expect the best, but still prepare for the worst.

Agreed and the 6 month mark thing will raise eyebrows amongst employers, as much as previous commenter things it won't. That kind of advice is meaningful to folks outside the Valley who need a counter-balance to the irrational risk-averseness that can occur there. For folks inside the Valley who've done bootstrapped (like yourself) I think you have a finely tuned sense of what will/won't look good to a potential employer and how something will be interpreted.

I dont know how much excess money you make, but its probably enough to hire someone from vietnam/india/the philipines on an either full-time or contract basis to work for you. Use that person as a bona-fide employee for one of your projects. This is probably not the highest impact hire you will ever make, but mentally, you will shift from worrying about your day job to viewing your dayjob as a means to an end to get one of your projects off the ground. That is how you could align your job more with your real goals.

I dont really know how you would be vesting anything at Goog within just one year, but apparently you do. Once "time is up", you take your talents to the freelancing world and make twice an hour what you made at big company as an employee. You are now the CEO of your company and you will make craploads of money, if you play your cards right. You should have no trouble joining Gigster, which is a way to do consulting without the very heavy lifting parts of running your own consulting shop. There, you will feel a lot more like being a decision-maker. Out of your vastly increased income, you take some money to bootstrap whatever you want, you could even just do a couple mini experiments and use the remaining money to funnel into savings/living.

Fulltime employment in the US is a trap. Its at-will, anyway. Working fulltime comes with less job security than contracting (no "hiring manager" will ever question my rate. It is simply my rate and doesnt get measured against "market value". when a hiring manager hires a contractor, they buy a serivce, not add to payroll). In other parts of the world, fulltimers take a salary cut in exchange for superior job security. In the US, fulltimers take a salary cut to be someones bitch, mostly. Additionally, as a contractor, I dont get black marks on my resume. I worked a contract with a client. Even if they unceremoniously fired me, all I got to say is "contract ended". Since it was never assumed to be forever anyway, nobody is going to bother. I solved their problem, they didn't need me anymore, mission accomplished.

Funny: I was going to reply that you shouldn't call out your employer and it took me a minute to understand the acronym. facepalm of the day.

> You should have no trouble joining Gigster, which is a way to do consulting without the very heavy lifting parts of running your own consulting shop. There, you will feel a lot more like being a decision-maker. Out of your vastly increased income, you take some money to bootstrap whatever you want, you could even just do a couple mini experiments and use the remaining money to funnel into savings/living.

Contracting is definitely something I've considered. If net pay were similar (or higher!), I'd definitely be interested. Would you mind if I asked you a bit more about what kind of contracting you do? If you wouldn't mind, contact me at "hn0s4@slipry.net".

Have children.

I feel you.

Get a PM job with focus on tech and business. Majority of the people who have an entrepreneurial mind succeed as a product manager. You like the hustle which goes into building something and being a dev in a big team building something wouldn't get you that experience.

I am kinda in the same boat and trying to see if i fit in as a PM.

Just grind it out at BigCo and continue bootstrapping your side project until it seems promising enough to jump ship.

One perspective that might help is how can your job help you as an entrepreneur? What can you learn / gain:

1. After 2 years say you can say you are "ex-google employee" which would help with marketing credibility. People will thing "ah he is smart!"

2. Procedures and processes Google use - you can cherry pick the best for your business.

3. Contacts - get to know some excellent developers and when they eventually move on you can build a team with them.

4. Ideas - you might be exposed to some interesting problems that would form the basis of your business.

5. Money - save hard and build a buffer for your new venture.

6. Negotiation - keep trying to get promoted and increase your salary. This helps with #5 and #2 and also negotiation skills needed for your business.