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Comment by squeaky-clean | Hacker News Reader

I always thought that was the iDevice's strength. With Android, you have nothing actually made by Google but by OEMs, with different names and branding that don't give any real information.

Which phone is "the android"? My mom doesn't think she has an android phone, she thinks she has an LG and that Android is a different thing. People buy a low end Android phone and hate the entire ecosystem because the phone performs like crap. I have a friend who thinks the Galaxy S7 would be a crappy upgrade because they already have a "Galaxy Core Prime".

When there was just the iPhone, it was really easy. It was expensive compared to other options, but you knew it was the best iPhone, and the one with a higher number was better than one with a lower number. Yet an LG G5 is better than a Samsung Galaxy S6, they are somehow both "Android", and Marshmallow is better than Jelly Bean.

Now the iPhone isn't that bad, but it's not simple anymore. iPhone 7, iPhone 7Plus, iPhone 7S, iPhone 7S Plus, iPhone SE. Which is better?

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I have a pixel. Before that, I had a nexus 6. Both say "Google" on them and both were purchased because they were the canonical versions of Android without any of the crapware other vendors add.

Which has a better proc and camera? I'll guess Nexus 6 because 6 comes after what must be the Pixel 1.

Naming schemes are terrible.

Pixel is mass market, Nexus is not. Only enthusiasts know that Nexus was a precursor to the Pixel so that comparison will probably never happen to the average consumer. Heck Google even avoids saying the Pixel runs Android

Mass market? Today the Pixel brand regroups only high-end products.

Guess he meant the Pixel is a "consumer product", unlike the Nexus which was essentially aimed at Android developers.

I've never heard such a confusion when it comes to TV purchases.

Life is imperfect and changing products require a little research. You can't just go to the store and buy the best socks either; if you want the best you got to do research. Thems the breaks.

Well, thems WASN'T the breaks with Apple for a long time, and they did quite well.

The person you replied to was trying to make the argument that a vendor can sell more product if they make the hierarchy of quality more clear to the consumer. Saying 'things are imperfect, as a consumer you just have to deal with it' doesn't really address his argument.

It addresses it with counter examples that indicate that a "hierarchy of quality" is not something that really exists in consumer products. The fact that so many companies chose not to make the hierarchy clear is an indication that such a hierarchy isn't valuable to them.

Look at the luxury car sector. https://www.audiusa.com/models#sedans/ Can you tell the quality by its naming convention? I can't. I can sort of assume some quality hierarchy by the price though.

The fact that Apple has abandoned the "one phone, one tablet" model indicates to me that it hasn't been a valuable strategy for them.

Car companies (at least European ones) tend to be pretty transparent about this: - Audi (example): letter (car/SUV/race car)+ number (quality: 1-cheap, 8-luxury) - BMW: first number is a quality class, two numbers is the Engine size. - Mercedes: first letter is a quality class, number is the engine.

Other luxury consumer goods use pretty similar schemes, e.g. Audio gear (e.g. bang + olufsen: the higher the number the better, with some number of meaningless zeroes added depending on fashion).

One observation might be that these companies all have halo products that are used to anchor/promote the volume offerings that drive revenue (e.g. The Audi r8 and the a3, the 90k speakers and the 1k set)

> Audi (example): letter (car/SUV/race car)+ number (quality: 1-cheap, 8-luxury) - BMW: first number is a quality class, two numbers is the Engine size. - Mercedes: first letter is a quality class, number is the engine.

You need to already know the brand to know this.

> (quality: 1-cheap, 8-luxury)

How high does it go? If they decide to turn it up to 11 tomorrow, is 8 still "luxury"?

I can't agree that this sort of versioning is any more transparent.

> (e.g. The Audi r8 and the a3, the 90k speakers and the 1k set)

This means nothing unless you already know the brand. There's going to be a minimum set of knowledge required to understand these versioning schemes.

There's going to be a minimum set of knowledge required to understand these versioning schemes.

Growing up in Europe seems to be enough wrt to Audi.

I'm not interested in cars but I have still picked this up somehow. Same with BMW.

This. They have been doing this for decades. Also Audi "8" something is equal to BMW "8" something.

I would be very surprised if many people are not confused about their high end TV purchase, and trying to figure out which ones are better and why.

Shit I just spent 20 minutes at the store the other day trying to figure out why one HP printer was $80, the next was $120, another was $150, and the most expensive was $200. Other than the size of the box, I had no idea what the difference was. One of them had a fax built in, but surprisingly that wasn't the most expensive model. The most expensive model didn't have the fax.

Both Android phones and high-end TVs are good examples of what Scott Adams calls "Confusopoly" :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confusopoly

heck, mobile phones are the canonical example.

To 95%+ of the consumer market, a TV is a dumb commodity. Dollars per inch is basically all that matters for the sale, and relative picture quality is forgotten about as soon as a consumer watches one show.

On the other hand, I think most Android users I know have told me a story about buying the "wrong" Android phone.

Phones are commodities too. We can debate at what stage of commoditization it currently is in, but clearly that's where it's headed, and the days of you being able to just grab one with minimal research the same way you can with TVs is coming.

I agree Google has a terrible track record with naming products or services - although not as bad as Microsoft - but you're exagerrating a bit.

The step from Nexus 6 tot Pixel isn't that difficult to understand (and you even forgot the Nexus 6P, the successor of the Nexus 6!). Car manufactures launch new models all the time, without much problems. If someone gets confused by such thing, maybe that person is better of with a feature phone.

My comment wasn't supposed to single out Android, but it seems that HN feels I did.

iPad

iPad 2

The new iPad (with Retina display)

The new iPad (with Retina display) (again)

iPad Air

iPad Air 2

iPad Pro

iPad (announced today)

And that's without the iPad Mini…

I believe this one the "IPad 9.7" replaces the "IPad Air"

We are a bunch of hackers and even we are not sure/can't get this right.

Yeah, just look at the deal I scored on an Xbox 360! They wanted more money for an Xbox 1! And don't even ask about that Tandy 1000!

I had a Galaxy Nexus on Verizon. Fool me once...

Only nerds can keep up with which is the "canonical" Android. All my non-tech friends have Samsung, LG, HTC, or Sony phones. The nerds have Nexus or Google phones.

which is just poor advertising and marketing from google. If they did the same amount and effort in marketing the nexus devices (or for god's sake, just call them google phones!), it will become a brand that can rival apple's.

Now, of course, google perhaps don't want that to happen, since the other big manufacturers will not like it, and that marketing isn't their core business.

You might be interested in this website.

https://www.stockdroids.com

There's also the 3G, 3GS, 4S, 5S, 5C, 6S, 6 Plus, 6S Plus

Looking back, there were always non-descriptive names, and inconsistencies.

I'd argue that not knowing what 'Android' is actually demonstrates the technology has reached its goal of being universal. It's implicit instead of explicit. People buy it without needing to know what it is. Why would most consumers care about the name of an operating system? It's unimportant. It's not like I remember the exact model of my TV or car, the important thing is that I can watch one and drive the other.

I agree that all of the sub-versions of the iPhone are slightly confusing, but at least they generally follow a pattern.

There's always a clear progression, a higher number is always better than a lower number, and adding an S is an incremental upgrade over the non-S version. The Plus is always a larger size than normal.

The G series and C series have complicated things, but generally speaking you just have to pick a number and then pick one of ~3 options at that level.

I've actually been saying this since the 3G came out, so we sort of agree. I thought that was the start of the stupidest naming convention, and we're all just watching it get worse throughout the years. At least until the 6 they weren't releasing multiple phones at the same time.

I'm just waiting for "iPhone 10, iPhone 10 Plus, iPhone 10 Air, iPhone 10 Air Plus, iPhone 10 Pro, iPhone 10 Pro Plus, iPhone SE 3, iPhone SE 3G"

> It's not like I remember the exact model of my TV or car

I really hope you know the make, model and year of your car, you need that for basic repairs. My 2004 Corolla takes parts of a 2003-2007 Corolla for most repairs, and runs best with a certain type of oil. Why would you not know this for an expensive device requiring maintenance?

Your TV isn't the same. It doesn't matter if it's 720p, 1080p, or 4k, or what the color resolution is, if it has an HDMI cable that will work.

Your phone is more like a car in that comparison. Things change so frequently, new software, updates (lack of updates), new wireless or hardware standards... An iPhone 5 in 2012 is a very different experience than an iPhone 5 in 2017. But I'm still using the same cheap Dynex "HD" TV for a decade. I can plug in a disk player or streaming device that weren't even conceived of when my TV was sold.

> Why would you not know this for an expensive device requiring maintenance?

Because when it breaks or needs maintenance they take it to a garage like any normal person.

I guess you didn't plan on labeling a whole lot of people as not normal? ;-)

> runs best with a certain type of oil

I'm 36, and I didn't know this. I thought there was a universal scale of goodness for oil. I bought a new car last summer, and I couldn't tell you the exact model either. I think this is fairly common.

I do know the basic make, model and year (it's on the number plate in the UK). However, there are lots of extra letters and numbers that identify the exact model. It's all documented, so no need to actually remember it.

"iPhone 7, iPhone 7Plus, iPhone 7S, iPhone 7S Plus, iPhone SE. Which is better?"

Bigger numbers are still better. "Plus" means the big screen. S is off year version, incremental upgrade on the previous number. Agreed SE is the odd one out, but don't think it's too hard for consumers to figure out "its the cheap one".

Because new iPhone models are introduced only once a year to great global fanfare, I bet a lot of consumers actually know the meaning of the version conventions very well.

Agreed on iPad and Mac versions, though, those are a mess.

It's still not that bad.

It's always a version number (ex., 7), the following version they add an 'S' (ex., 7S), then the following version they will increase the version number (ex., 8). "Plus" means bigger, and you can regognize it because it's bigger, "SE" means lower-end, you can recognize it because it costs a lot less.

I currently own a Huawei Y6II, which I read is a clone of the P9. No idea what it means, what the following version will be called, or what the previous version was called.

> "Plus" means bigger, and you can regognize it because it's bigger, "SE" means lower-end, you can recognize it because it costs a lot less.

It's also a smaller phone, just like how the Plus is larger and costs more, but isn't any faster. The name or price of SE doesn't imply lower end at all, they've even removed the number so you don't know which one it's comparable to.

I agree it's not awful, just that it's slipping.

I don't know, I tried switching to PCs for a while, I couldn't get how their naming works.

I mean, where do you even begin to try to figure this out: http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/

You just look at the hardware and read reviews. There isn't really a sliding scale for PCs, that's the awesome thing about manufacturers that let you customize. Doing a lot of gaming or modelling? Better graphics card. Running shitloads of processes? Better ram. Better processor. Extra HDD, or SSD, or optical drive? Etc.

So, because they aren't sane enough to figure out a naming scheme that makes sense, I have to waste hours or days looking at reviews just to understand what the difference is between the models? From what I could understand it's possible that the X67L is a good laptop, the X67LX is a crappy low-cost plastic netbook. How dumb is that.

Also, why do they ask me if my laptop is for work or home? What if I use it for both (which I do)? It doesn't make any sense.

I bought the new MacBook Pro mostly because of macOS, but also because I couldn't figure out how PC name their products, nor why they have to have 50 different barely-different models.

>X67L is a good laptop, the X67LX is a crappy low-cost plastic netbook. How dumb is that. //

To me that's not half as frustrating as the companies that sell a, let's say 755cx and then create a new model a few years later and call that 755cx ... how bloody annoying [like hey, this review is from 7 years before the thing was made, and it's a completely different system]. Or worse still, not have a model number to refer to. I think the worst I had was trying to find parts for a Toshiba laptop, IIRC, there were about 5 different models in 10 years with the same designation, like lets just call all our new laptops the "Laptop New" what could possibly be wrong with that.

You make this sound bizarrely difficult given a defined price range you could probably pick a decent laptop based on amazon reviews in 15 minutes and be pretty happy with it.

If you want to play real pc games get a desktop or a console unless you have a lot of money to spend.

How do you deal with the rest of the consumer universe? I'm betting you get along just fine.

> How do you deal with the rest of the consumer universe? I'm betting you get along just fine.

Yes, because I couldn't care less. I do care about my laptop, though. If anything because it's 1,500 or more.

So, since you care, doing research to get the right one doesn't seem unreasonable at all to me.

I put in a solid hour of research at least before buying a new pair of boots. It took me many hours over many days to choose a camera. Took me weeks to build my PC. Each of those products I put in an amount of research that's at least somehow correlated with the price I paid for them (boots -> 100$ -> camera 600$ -> PC $1300)

They are running a business. Presumably they want people to buy things. Making potential customers do research because the product line is opaque is just throwing away good leads.

Presumably they would want to sell you the lowest-cost-to-manufacture product for the highest price. So, the more you know about the product, the worse for them, because it removes an opportunity to obfuscate.

So, yea, research is a bit tricky, but that's good because the reason it's tricky is because you aren't depending on the company to tell you the real value of their product.

The idea of researching something that you care about... annoys you?

Researching doesn't annoy me.

What annoy me are the people that are supposed to make researching easy (for their own good) but make it a lot harder than it should be.

Coming from the PC universe, the process is different.

1. Define: You first decide what you actually want 2. Search: Your search is entirely based on value for money (you have defined value before) 3. Decide: You read reviews and decide which one to take 4. Buy: Find the cheapest offer

Not once should you have to care about the name of the product, it simply does not matter.

There should be more than enough databases that let you sort and filter the latest notebooks.

If it doesn't matter, they should pick easier ones.

They lost at least myself as a customer. I doubt I'm the only one on the planet who didn't buy a PC because he couldn't figure out the offer.

Well, to be honest, it sounds like you care about the "name" and thus the value the company trying to sell you a product wants you to believe that product is worth.

So apple could release the iPhone 8 with the same specs as the 3GS, and you'd get bamboozled because you can't be bothered to do your research before purchasing something.

Nothing about driver compatibility :( it's a long and painful process to figure out if the computer you want will even work with the software you want to use.

Of course I'm sure it's better if you use the blessed OS and version pair, but I've never found a reason to use windows before....

Driver compatibility could be hell in windows as well if you're cursed with a "switchable" graphics option. My last lenovo could switch between on-board and dedicated graphics, but the latest video driver that lenovo provided was from the year before I even bought the laptop. If I used the card manufacturer's drivers, they'd usually work but killed the ability to switch to on-board graphics; but if I used Lenovo's drivers, games performed very badly due to how out of date they were.

Having one manufacturer and fewer models usually means longer and more consistent product support.

> I mean, where do you even begin to try to figure this out: http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/

... by reading the subtitles?

I like lenovo laptops and I agree that they have too many model lines, but apart from a couple of subtitles, most of them are descriptive of that particular line.

Computers are easy. Try figuring out business printers. My colleague who was leading the effort was ready to gouge out his eyes.

How do you figure that se means lower end? It's the only model with that size screen; I'd think that's the determinant for a lot of people.

iPhone is OK. Now explain iPad to me.

This. Back when there was only one iPhone to buy, it made the decision for the customers really easy: either you buy it, or you don't. But now, you gotta consider different specs and models Apple is providing, and choose from a plethora of devices... When you have multiple options, choosing one gets much difficult.

Now, don't Apple Executives know this already? I guess they do, but what Tim Cook has done so far has been stabilizing the company and increasing the profit (by building various versions of the same product and targeting a broader range of people).

This came at a cost though: making the organization more and more bureaucratic leads to more efficiency, but less creativity and innovation. I think Apple's strategy has changed but in a few years, they're going to need a fresh air in the company or they'll get Nokia-ed.

Each year they bring out three different sized models. Big, medium and small. Or you can buy an old one.

Yes there are feature differences, if you are a techie or a gamer or into photography, but bigger always means better. It really isn't rocket science.

The iPad and Mac laptop lineups are a bit of a mess at the moment though. I think that's mainly because they're in various stages of technology transitions such as retina displays, wide colour gamut, touch bar and Apple Pencil support. They're pushing aggressively into new technologies and manufacturing processes and I think that's creating problems for them.

You don't have to consider different specs. Whether you buy an A8 powered iPhone SE, an A9 powered iPhone 6s, or an A10 powered iPhone 7, you get a very well performing phone that is probably going to run the latest OS for the next 3 - 5 years.

The only thing you have to consider is what size you prefer, the color, and the amount of memory.

The SE has an A9; its guts are basically those of a 6s, minus Force Touch and the second-gen fingerprint sensor. With yesterday's rev to storage, I guess its guts are basically now those of a 6s+.

I believe the cheaper, albeit slow performing Android phones are revolutionizing the developing countries. People who could never afford a shiny Apple phone and its ecosystem are thriving due to Android.

That's not really against the commenter's point, though. I think the argument is that Apple had a clearly defined and differentiated product with the iPhone, and model creep can be considered a threat to that clarity. (As good as Android has been for a wide range of users, it's tough to stand out as a device maker.)

Well, I am from Germany and am using a Mac but I dislike the new iPhones and Android (for example MIUI) is not worse than iOS, the only downside is the missing iCloud integration.

I had many iPhone devices in the past (ranging from the first to the 5, which was my last) and with the iPhone 6 it went downhill in my opinion. This is where I switched to Xiaomi and never looked back.

So it's not only in developing countries, for example I prefer my Xiaomi Mi5 Pro over any iPhone device that is out there.

They have their flagship every year and so it's pretty easy so know what to pick. The Tablet part is lacking but the MiPad 3 is in the works.

>and Android (for example MIUI) is not worse than iOS //

I prefer stock Android but my latest phone has MIUI. It's OK, but I don't want someone else's tailoring I want my own; why can't companies offer their own settings but leave devices open for those who want to change. Yes, "support" but just have a "support and warranty will be limited by changing this setting" with a tick box and an "are you sure?" nag and let me return my device to stock. Grrr. /rant

It's quite obvious the Pixel is the "flagship" Android Google phone. And Pixel C is the "flagship" Android tablet.

The pixel is advertised everywhere as a Google phone. Who makes it doesn't really come up in their product communication much.

And the 'flagship' label is literally in the title of the Pixel products on Amazon. And on the website it's called "Pixel, phone by Google".

> People buy a low end Android phone and hate the entire ecosystem because the phone performs like crap.

This seems like an antiquated view of Android. I don't think people see Apple as having a monopoly on luxury/quality devices anymore. And considering the heavy OS modifications made by different companies and the entire UX experience of dealing with a company (customer service, website, accessories, etc), I don't really see why it matters if your mom thinks she has a "Samsung" or an "LG". There's more to Android phones than the base OS.

For people on Hacker News, sure. But try asking your grandma what the flagship Android phone is and what the flagship Apple phone is. It is much more confusing for the average person than you'd think.

> I don't really see why it matters if your mom thinks she has a "Samsung" or an "LG".

Because when people ask if she has an Android she says "No."

> There's more to Android phones than the base OS.

I know, that's my complaint. It really adds nothing for the customer to have it be so fragmented.

In fairness, if you asked your grandma what the flagship Ford or Chevrolet car was, she wouldn't know, either.

From [1], the Ford Taurus [2]? Weird...

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Flagship_vehicles

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Taurus_(sixth_generation)

And of course the answer changes depending on where you're from. Over here, you can't buy the Taurus, so I would probably say Ford Mondeo or Ford Edge.

> But try asking your grandma what the flagship Android phone is and what the flagship Apple phone is

Most people would just say 'iphone', not knowing which model is the 'flagship'.

It is also fairly obvious that the pixel will be abandoned in about 2 years max. Since it was previously obvious that the Nexus was their flagship.

It isn't as bad as it was 2 years ago, where the main google phone would get updates, but was nigh unusable with the latest operating system. I still fully expect my nexus 6 to be basically abandoned by them within a year or so now.

It's not obvious at all. It isn't even obvious if you spend 8 hours on research and are a techie.

What was the flagship before the Pixel? What was the flagship 2 years ago? The android market probably has a changing flagship every 6 months and even then it isn't obvious what it is.

Try typing "flagship android phone" into Google search. Pixel only comes up in 8-9 results out of 100.

The term 'flagship' is confusing for Android, as each manufacturer that ships an Android device typically has their own flagship phone as well.

However, I think most Android consumers don't care about whether a phone is flagship. I imagine most tend to be more interested in finding a comfortable balance between price and features.

"Android" is not a hardware manufacturer; each manufacturer has its own flagships, just like Apple does. That Apple is also their own (and only their own) OS vendor doesn't mean "flagships" apply per-OS.

Everyone knows that Flagship is a cheese.

I've not heard of the cheese, but the beer is very good:

http://www.sheltonbrothers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/HO...

https://www.cheeserank.com/post/beechers-flagship-cheddar

You'll find it all around Seattle and at Costco in neighboring states. When you get off a plane at SeaTac they hand you a free sample.

Ok I was kidding about the free sample at SeaTac... Only a little...there is a Beecher's store and cafe there.

You missed one, I just opened their home and this ad appeared "Buy iPhone 7 (PRODUCT)RED™ Special Edition" (4,7in , 5,5in), order starting at 8:01 a.m. PDT on 3.24.

> Every purchase contributes to the Global Fund to support HIV/AIDS programs and help deliver an AIDS-free generation.

They've had those for ages, though...

I did not know, I'm not crazy about the color, but I love the concept ! ...

It is super nice to read that apple does something for those in need ( sorry Apple, the tax evasion techniques are not a good marketing strategy, instead this is great ).

I always get (PRODUCT)RED covers, because I really like that red.

Nope, the Red iPhones have literally just been released. They've been available in iPod Touch for ages.

My nephew bought an iPhone 6s Plus the other day at a Walmart, and the signage clearly showed the range of phones from 7 to SE, along with prices, so picking out the newer, high-end phone was a simple matter.

I see, when looking at http://www.apple.com/iphone/ on my phone that the product line is arrayed at the top, with the 7 labeled as "New".

http://www.apple.com/ipad/compare/

A lot of people will conflate Samsung with Android here (NZ). So Samsung is the iPhone alternative with a different OS, rather than android.

Same in Sweden. People ask, "you have a Samsung charger?" (Meaning micro-usb in general)

I have a "crappy" $50 Android phone and I love it. Galaxy Express 3. It gets the job done, has expandable storage, and I don't feel bad when I inevitably drop it in water or lose it.

Its nice to give consumers choice, but it puts extereme pressure on Apple to commit to their things works across every apple product policy. Most of loyal [non dev] apple consumers count on this.

At the end of the day, Google doesn't care if people don't know they're using Android, so long as they're using the google services.

Hence why they don't care about OS updates as Play Services run all the way down to 4.0.

So who cares if the customer owns a device full of security holes, they still get their money.

Higher numbers are newer/better, everyone on the planet understands this.

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