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Comment by javiermaestro | Hacker News Reader

Heh. If only they mandate to replace a majority of the crappy wooden + single-pane windows they have in most houses, that let all of the heat out and wind and noise in, with normal, double-glaze windows with good insulation, they would cut the energy footprint in HALF, I'm sure...

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>crappy wooden

I'm not sure where you got the gripe against wood from. It lasts longer than uPVC given maintenance every 5 years, looks better, is more environmentally friendly and has similar thermal properties. Oh and it doesn't go yellow.

The amount of glue used to produce the wooden windows is so huge, that PVC windows are a much better choice both environmentally and for your health. There are different colored tapes that can be applied to make it look like wood. But they are still uglier.

Nothing against wood, really. But if you've been to the UK, you should agree that the unmaintained, not-properly-fitted, wooden frames that they use in most old windows are just crap. They let in huge amounts of wind, cold, etc, through the unsealed seams. Anything that improved that would be 10 times better, regardless of the yellowing, etc.

Most wooden sash (I assume you're talking about wooden sash) were properly fitted at the time, but are victorian or edwardian and therefore over 100 years old. They've done pretty well considering their heritage. New wooden sash with double glazing are better IMO than plastic windows - as the parent noted, plastic doesn't do well long term when exposed to light.

>New wooden sash with double glazing are better IMO than plastic windows

Hugely, I think it's a testament to the design that they still look great today. Double glazed wooden sash windows are however much pricier than a uPVC alternative which puts them out of reach of many.

So then, we all agree that the old (ancient) and unmaintained wood frames in the UK are crap. Cool! :)

Really, I couldn't care less if they replaced the frames with wood or whatever, as long as they made sure that they were thermally good and avoid wasting all of the heat...

No.

>you should agree that the unmaintained

Agreed, but wasn't this also an issue with steel windows in the 60s? uPVC put in in the early 90s already looks crap (IMO).

I had my sash windows refurbished a few years back, adding double glazing and draft proofing. They said the frames were the original wood from around 150 years ago, although they said the glass was from the post-war period (in common with most windows in London, given most were shattered at some point during the war). There's no way uPVC frames will last anything remotely approaching that amount of time.

So then, we all agree that the old (ancient) and unmaintained wood frames in the UK are crap. Cool! :) Really, I couldn't care less if they replaced the frames with wood or whatever, as long as they made sure that they were thermally good and avoid wasting all of the heat...

I suppose you are joking, as double-glazing seems to be a popular meme in the UK (with people being convinced they don't need it and scammy vendors pushing it)? Must admit I never completely understood it, coming from a country where double glazing is the norm.

Can't understand your comment. You are agreeing with me that, in most other parts of the world, double-glazing (aka a glass that won't break if you elbow it by mistake!) is the norm. But in the UK, it's sadly the opposite. So we agree that they should replace their crappy windows with double-glazed, properly insulated, ones...

I meant I never understood why people in the UK dislike double glazing and think of it as a kind of joke. Don't know much about the story of double glazing in the UK, though.

The only thing that comes to mind is that climate is supposed to be mild in the UK, so maybe double glazing makes less sense than in colder countries? But it can get pretty cold in the UK...

My comment wasn't meant as a criticism of your comment.

Double-glazing is popular in the UK - but it was a late-adoption: I didn't see it become popular until the early-1990s (I note this would be shortly after the privatization of British Gas, hmmm!)

A contributing factor is the popularity of rented accommodation, including council-owned houses, where the pressure to invest in double-glazing is less (as tenants are responsible for gas/elec bills, but landlords are responsible for capital-expenditures and improvements) - so there's not much incentive to upgrade windows in that case.

But all new houses I've seen built since the late-80s all tend to have double-gazed windows, the majority have white PVC framing, but I see wooden ones occasionally too. I've never seen white PVC window framing turn yellow - my parents had their windows converted around 1994 - now 23 years later the frames are still pristine white - and I'm not aware of any special treatment or care they require.

That said, public perception of double-glazing salesmen isn't the best - they were the butt of many a joke in the 80s and 90s, including Blur's Parklife video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSuHrTfcikU - though I never understood myself, perhaps because they were a commonplace sighting?

That... and even today they seem to capitalize on their public perception with intentionally gauche TV ads: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgqJPd_YJtE

Thanks for the clarification!

I think this is itself a "legacy joke"; I would say it was the 80s-90s when door to door double glazing salesmen were rife. The only real objection was the sheer cost of retrofitting it, plus a bit of stiff upper lip about not caring about being cold.

A friend of mine lives in a single-glazed 13-storey 1960s apartment block. It can be quite drafty. There's no way it will ever be refitted and I'd give it a couple of decades until its demolition.

The UK's housing stock is very old on average and some of it is in very poor condition.

>> But in the UK, it's sadly the opposite.

Any data to back this up? Personally I find it a pretty rare sight to see windows that aren't double glazed and if I came across a property without them it's absurd enough I wouldn't move into it.

Sure, it's annecdata... but just come to London. All of the old housing from the 70s or before (most of Z1-Z2) is single pane. Also, go search in Zoopla for double-glazing... landlords mark it as an extra for a reason (unless it's a new development, in which case it will be double glazing).

Well, I've talked to people and been to quite a few places in the UK, Scotland, etc. I know many people living in London, the UK and Scotland. We all agree. I'm pretty sure it's the same all over the UK

And for the rental prices that you pay here, it's pretty shameful the state of the houses, windows included.

Interesting. Maybe it depends on where the property is located within the UK. There was a big double glazing push in Northern Ireland in the 90's and I can't remember the last time I was in a property without it. I've rented in London (Z2) a few times and haven't come across an issue yet but I may have been getting lucky. The different heating requirements between Southern UK and Northern are pretty astounding so that might have something to do with it. I haven't used the heating in my London flat in about 4 weeks now and throughout the winter 4 hours a day was plenty. In NI I would have been using it for another couple of months at least and almost constant during winter.

They kind of did that with the Green Deal (helping people finance home improvements which boosted their energy efficiency) - https://www.gov.uk/green-deal-energy-saving-measures/overvie...

I'd love to see the results... I've never been so baffled in my life, looking for a "normal" flat in London and looking at horrible prospects that cost a fortune with windows from a century ago. And when I asked about that, they were all saying "oh, but the house is listed! Can't change the windows unless X, Y, Z". Whatever.

We can put people in a rocket and take them to the moon but we can't replace windows and make them look identical to the previous ones but with all of the modern efficiency. Because oh well, the building won't be looking exactly like two centuries ago or something.

Completely crazy, let me tell you... :(

There's a history of people hiring the wrong builders and buildings being destroyed, I should imagine it's partially to hedge against that.

If you take the example of something like a Crittall steel-framed single-glazed window, a classic of the 1930s, there's just no way to fit double-glazing into the frames without destroying the appearance. The problem of thermal bridging (the metal conducts heat straight through) is also difficult to solve without thickening the frames. Maybe future technology will solve these problems. It seems more likely that the appearance of those buildings will take a hit due to the urgency of saving energy.

I'd be surprised if it was genuinely because the building's listed, it's usually just that the landlord doesn't want to make the investment (and the market doesn't demand it). Sadly, until the law requires rentals attain a certain level of efficiency, the same way you need something like a gas safety certificate, I can't see it changing.

And apparently the Green Deal was a failure - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/14/green-de....

Someone's taking the piss. There's almost no chance a "normal" flat in London is listed. Conservation area, maybe, but that's a different kettle of fish. Most likely your prospective landlord's a cheapskate.

I don't know about London, but my very normal flat (currently renting below LHA rate) in Cheltenham is grade II listed.

There are about 2000 - 3000 grade 1 and grade 2* listed buildings in London. 92% of all listed buildings are grade 2; the other 8% are grade 1 or 2. So there's likely to be a fair amount of properties that are listed.

I agree most buildings won't be listed and most landlords are cheapskates. But there are quite a lot of listed buildings in London:

http://londonist.com/2011/06/all-listed-buildings-in-london-...

No You cant I looked at buying a grade2* listed property (mentioned in pevsner no less) 1800's alms house.

You even had to use authentic rubbish paint on the doors

So that's what I'm saying. Instead of useless laws like that one, the Government should put a lot of weight and money and refurbish all of those windows, making them modern while using all those "original materials" or whatever they want.

Instead, I'm sure half the energy footprint goes to waste through those windows...

I'm not sure many people would agree with you that laws to prevent the destruction of historic buildings are "useless".

LOL please go look at a map of London, Z1-Z2. Protection? It's almost like every other building is "protected"!

Plus, read my comments. I'm saying the government should take care and sponsor the fixes to ensure the quality while greatly reducing the energy bill (that's my thesis).

London is 2000 years old. There are lots of historic buildings. There are energy saving grants available. Building regulations on insulation (including glazing) are very strict, but they're not retroactive until further work is done on the building. That's when you do see the double glazed units in sash windows. These are, incidentally, very expensive items, but then so is most listed building work. If you don't want it, don't buy a listed building.

Some streets, particularly in London, are very picky about modifications to houses. Even if it's not a listed property, you might need to get planning permission to put double glazing in - if it'll make your house look out of place with the neighbourhood the council can disallow it.

That's what I think any time I'm in the UK. But most buildings are either protected (happened in our office, windows could not be double glassed due to protection and they added a new, secondary window for insulation "behind"), or nobody wants to spend that amount of money

Not wanting to invest in the building is by far the more common reason.

Especially when the tenant will take all the advantage of lower bills, increased comfort etc.

I think 'Most' is a huge overstatement, the last house I lived in without it was a student dive in 1996.

Really? Check this: https://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/pdf/rpts/countryfactfile20...

Page 3, Summary:

Around 83% of homes in each country have some double glazing. Northern Ireland has a higher percentage of homes which are fully double glazed, 62%, compared with 32-44% in the other countries.

So, ~60% of the houses are NOT fully double-glazed. In 2007. Srsly. And sure, it's from 2007... but I highly doubt the situation has changed...

Why would you doubt the situation has changed? Also, not fully double glazed would cover my current house which has one single glazed tiny bathroom window with an extractor fan in it.

Since quite a few people have been commenting without even googling some data, here we go:

https://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/pdf/rpts/countryfactfile20...

Page 3, Summary:

Around 83% of homes in each country have some double glazing. Northern Ireland has a higher percentage of homes which are fully double glazed, 62%, compared with 32-44% in the other countries.

So, ~60% of the houses are NOT fully double-glazed. In 2007. Srsly. And sure, it's from 2007... but in my expericence, and in talking with a lot of friends, in a main city such as London and in other small cities (e.g. Fareham in the south), the situation is quite similar nowadays...

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