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Comment by gigatexal | Hacker News Reader

Well if the predilection towards pedophilia could be managed or "cured" and if prisons did more than just house inmates I.e if they worked on rehab instead of punishment then perhaps the lifetime listings wouldn't be necessary. I won't begin to insinuate that I have the right balance between parents wanting to be cautious with who their kids interact with and the belief that people can change for the better. And then there's the case of adolescents who get caught up in the system before their minds are fully formed...

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This.

In Norway (heck, in Scandinavia, and, is my impression, in most of North/Central Europe, too), there's strong focus on rehabilitation.

Inmates are encouraged to pursue education while incarcerated. If you want to enter a trade, there are workshops &c in the prisons where you can do your apprenticeship.

Also, in all but the (rare) cases where you are deemed to be a lasting danger to society, you are automatically eligible for parole after serving 2/3 of the sentence. This, combined with a maximum sentence of 21 years imprisonment, means that most offenders are released back into society after a maximum of 14 years behind bars.

During the latter part of your sentencing, you are progressively granted more and more freedom - for instance, halfway houses where you can go to work in the daytime but need to observe a curfew in evenings/nights. The idea, of course, being to prepare you for civilian life again.

Result? The recidivism rate is among the lowest in the world, at approx. 20% overall. (I didn't know that until I googled it while writing this comment.)

That being said, liberal me still feel somewhat less lenient towards paedophiles; I guess any parent does.

However, I don't think the solution is locking them up and throwing away the key; much better to provide counseling and treatment to bring their recidivism rate down as well. It is my firm conviction no society can imprison anyone for life just in case they should reoffend and still consider themselves civilized. Obviously, your mileage may vary.

America is hell-bent on not being like Europe even given the good there is to learn from.

-Oh, there's no such thing as a perfect society, IMHO - but when it comes to crime and punishment, I do think the US could benefit from taking a leaf or two from our books.

However, there are a couple of key differences (still IMHO!) which makes it difficult to compare the two.

Most notably, perhaps - we do not elect judges. Nor do we elect police chiefs. The latter are positions you apply for as you would any other; the former are appointed by a non-partisan committee.

Hence, there's no benefit for representatives of the judicial and executive to be seen as tough on crime; there's no gain to be had.

As for the legislative, there's a fairly broad consensus, the odd populist aside, that sentencing (mostly) is well matched to the needs of society - so there's no strong drive to enforce harsher punishment. (And believe me, we did discuss this ad nauseum and then some after the 2011 labour party youth camp terror attack!(0))

Surely, there's a component of punishment - after all, you want to send a message to others contemplating the same crime that you need to factor jail time into your calculations - but the main focus is to ensure you don't end up behind bars again, as that would be a net loss both to you, the future victims and society at large.

(0) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

I didn't mean to insinuate that Europe was perfect just that there are things we could learn that would help us one of which is the rehab vs throw-away-the-key approach to prisoners.

Oops, my bad - my intent was simply to acknowledge that we old-worlders do have a thing or two to learn from our former colonies, too.

Agreed. I didn't take your comments as anything other than constructive. Alas, though, this administration has no diplomacy.

In the US electing police chiefs is rare (but can happen under the Commission style of city government).

Prosecutors, however, are often elected, and you can imagine the incentive problems.

> That being said, liberal me still feel somewhat less lenient towards paedophiles; I guess any parent does.

It's a sickness. And we have (mental) hospitals for sick people. Problem solved, no leniency required.

There was a short documentary about pedophilia showing the opposite:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Fx6P7d21o

It's a sensitive subject, but treating pedophilia as something that can be cured with medical intervention is rash.

This mindset is akin to treating homosexuality with shock therapy.

> This mindset is akin to treating homosexuality with shock therapy.

If like homosexuality it's not a mental illness then that means it is either a conscious decision to only be attracted to and target childrent (which I find unlikely) or it is natural occurence somewhere on the human sexual spectrum.

How do we reconcile that with the attitude most people seem to have, that paedophiles need to be severely punished for being what they are? Are they this way from birth like we consider homosexuals to be?

We've thought exactly the same in the past about depression, homosexuality, unmarried mothers and outspoken women, but yes, maybe this time medicalizing something before we know much about it is the right answer and won't make us look like abhorrent barbarians to our grandchildren.

> if prisons did more than just house inmates

The problem is that the US system in particular is obsessed with punishment alone. Yes, sure, sometimes the punishment is justified as a learning experience but it's entirely based on the idea that punishment alone is sufficient to teach and act as a deterrent to others.

Considering mental health (especially for the poor) is fairly neglected as a public health issue in the US and the country has the highest incarceration rate in the "free world", I'm not sure there's a fix.

Oh, and paedophilia absolutely can be managed if you treat it as a mental health issue. Not to mention that most sexual abuse of minors isn't actually committed by paedophiles -- just like most rape cases aren't simply about very horny people who can't help themselves.

I agree. Though perhaps the Victorian / puritan morality that underlies American history won't let us move on from punishment to rehab.

I'm not sure punishment vs rehabilitation is the cause for support of such a cruel system. I myself am in favour of punishment in addition to rehabilitation, up to an eye for an eye (as it was originaly used - to limit retaliation) for serious crimes. But even to me the US law system seems way too harsh on the accused, in both establishing guilt and assigning punishment, so I don't really know what drives others to support it.

Perhaps they hear of a few over-lenient sentences, or of someone getting away with it without a conviction, and in response vote to raise the severity for everyone?

> highest incarceration rate in the "free world"

2nd highest in the world full stop is a starker figure (behind Seychelles which has a population <10k)

You're probably right since "free world" can mean many different things to different people, although I thought Seychelles had like 100,000 people

Oops, yeah should say <100k. Still. Quite small.

Also nearly all countries that are anywhere in the vicinity of the US on that list have tiny populations. Even Russia is only at #10: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...

Also also this: http://imgur.com/a/SYIwN

    > Well if the predilection towards pedophilia could
    > be managed or "cured"

And what if not? If these people did not deliberately chose whom they are attracted to any more than gays did, they are in a really really sad place.

But adult homosexual relationships in general are fully consensual. It is increasingly harder to make that case as age gap increases, and while we should be empathetic towards the adult we also must be empathetic towards the child, who still may have a nascent view of what should be expected of them from others.

The solution to this problem does not involve changing a single policy, i.e. rehabilitate / be more lenient on practicing pedophiles, but a change in societal perspective as well as a more rational approach to age of consent laws in the US. After that, we are left with only problematic pedophiles, often repeat offenders, with whom it is a lot easier to make the decision to lock up as long as necessary for their safety and the safety of others. By removing uncertainty and doubt we can focus on real, abusive criminals and rehabilitation could truly be realized because of the large decrease in cases.

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