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Comment by nunez | Hacker News Reader

I completely agree with this.

My immediate family and I came from having next to nothing. We busted ass and have money now. We aren't rich, but we're enjoying life in ways we couldn't growing up.

If we, instead, believed the rhetoric that life is screwed unless you came out of a "lucky vagina," we would still be broke, in Brooklyn, trying to make ends meet, and I would be another socially-inept dude that spends way too much time on games and "computers."

It's not just us either. I graduated with a bunch of people who came from similar situations and are now doing great.

Life is what you make of it.

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Confirmation bias?

Just because it worked for you, doesn't mean there aren't a thousand people who tried and failed at exactly the same thing.

Your chances are definitely higher than zero if you try, but unfortunately it's no guarantee that you'll succeed.

There is no guarantee for anything. That is not a reason not to try.

There is literally nothing better to do with your life than try. So just try.

this comment is what a lifetime of philosophical thought, traveling, psychedelics, meditation, and experimentation has led me to as well.

"there is literally nothing better to do with your life than try. so just try."

The issue though is that a lot of the people mentioned in the original article don't think trying is worthwhile. So advice to "just try" is always going to fall short.

As advice it also ignores the structural issues that make trying easier and harder for various people. One way of encouraging people to try is to break down the real barriers that exists and make it harder for them than others.

This is the same kind of "advice" depressed people get. "Have you tried getting better"? "You just need to be happy". "Try my coping mechanism". "See a standup comedian". "Just try".

I hope I don't have to go through all the reasons this is fundamentally disconnected from the problem described in the article now.

What's your alternative?

Professional therapy.

what if that doesn't work?

I'm not prepared for this hypothetical, who knows what I would do, I guess I might even launch a startup.

Thanks, but this gives me nothing actionable. What am I supposed to do with this? Just be depressed?

Your advice is for a problem which is different from that in the article and the larger Macro scenario.

People ARE trying. Its not really a good strategy as it gets no where. Its only a better strategy than not trying, as not trying gets you to being a depressing statistic, like joblessness in erstwhile manufacturing hubs.

So what's the alternative? Give up and cry before even trying?

Knowing that you might fail and flame out is the definiton of risk; you do it because the upside is worth it

Obviously the people who drop out of the labor force don't think the upside is worth it.

Otherwise they'd be out there, looking for work. Instead of dismissing the possibility that they act in their rational self interest, perhaps you can study how the actual risk/reward ratio evolved for these people over the course of the last few decades.

But that would be quite a bit harder than giving self-help advice on the internets.

Okay, but you still haven't presented me with an alternative.

The point is you need to qualify by trying first.

"There is no point in trying, because you will fail" kind of attitude prevents you from trying at the first place.

There is one reason to be assured of failure, which is by doing nothing at all.

It is too easy for people who have "made it" to say this. I have kind of made it too, so I could have the same attitude. The problem however is that anecdotes don't proof a point. You have to look at numbers. Numbers say that the majority of Americans are losing purchasing power year after year, and there are fewer middle class jobs. Somehow, the 1% have more privileges each passing day, they pay close to nothing in taxes and corporations can dodge taxes any way they want. As a result, there is less money to invest in people, and the same pattern is repeating itself in most countries around the world (globalization, remember).

Where do you think rich people put their wealth? A savings account?

Caymans and investments. Most of those geared for quick and high returns, not sustainability, improving society or long term job creation.

I would argue that public securities and the stock market is exactly what provides sustainability and long term job creation.

Wrong. The stock market doesn't care about job creation. They care about wealth creation, which is mostly concentrated in the hands of a few. In fact, wall street loves when firms lay off workers. If every firm out there laid off 50% or their workers the price of stocks would greatly increase, because then more money would go directly to the hands of shareholders.

Some do

Who are they going to invest the money they have in though? People who play computer games and watch Netflix all day? Probably not hey. If you want any chance you're going to have to do something. At least try something.

Enough with this. People who have money are not investing in productive things. They are mostly investing in hedge funds to play the market for the short term as a lottery, or in merger/acquisitions, which kills more jobs than creates. They also put money in assets like real estate that have their prices inflated because of the big rise in money looking for safe investments. When investors do something productive, it is just high technology that kills more jobs than it creates. In other words, the idea that wealthy people create jobs is a myth that is patently wrong in our times.

alternate theory. people who have money are desperately looking for things with potential for big returns. if you are one of those things or create one of those things there is more money looking for you than has ever looked for anyone in the history of the world.

i.e., they're looking for something that will concentrate wealth in their hands even more. This just exemplifies my point.

even if they were investing specifically for job creation, it would be less efficient than just redistributing the wealth and increasing the demand for products which would directly lead to job growth.

in other words, a restaurant owner isnt going to hire new employees unless hes got more customers, it doesnt matter how much 'investment' you give them, what creates job is demand.

Same. Neither parents went to college. I went to college completely on the government's dime because my EFC was $0.

The only thing I had to do to get free grants was to show my parents didn't have money.

Their poverty became an enormous benefit for me when applying to college and receiving financial aid. It's an incredible and amazing country we live in.

You are mostly correct. But IMO you miss something very important -- "busting ass" has zero correlation to "we have money now".

I busted my ass as a obedient worker bee for 15 years and now (at 37 years old) all I have are 4 debts and a bit of tech. No own apartment/house, no savings, no security of any kind. If I lose my job tomorrow, I am as good as homeless. Oh, and I have health problems for which I can't pay (having teeth with holes in them isn't fixed by home remedies, before you try that).

I am glad it worked for you. You have to understand what you say is a confirmation bias however.

Will I ever stop trying? No. I am changing approach drastically as I am typing this, changing the way I work and communicate with people, focusing more on what the business needs are instead of negotiating for meager salaries that barely cover my huge monthly expenses and food. I'll succeed eventually, simply because people who don't give up + change their way of doing things are inevitably bound to succeed. But again, don't try to push the message of "work hard and it will work out". No it won't, otherwise now my mother would have had respectable pension and wouldn't rely on me for shelter and food.

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