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Comment by dataminded | Hacker News Reader

I don't agree with the argument that passengers should tip because Uber isn't paying their drivers enough. That sounds like welfare for Uber. If the pay sucks, Uber should have trouble recruiting drivers.

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I really hate tipping culture in America. In Germany, servers are surprised if you give them anything more thana euro. I have friends who visit from non tipping cultures who ask "Why isn't it just included in the price!"

I agree with the author. Tipping is out of hand. Charge more for food, clearly state it on the menu/check, remove the tip black on the receipt and pay people a decent wage!

I don't mind tipping in principle, but I really hate the payment terminals that are preconfigured with outrageous options, so it prompts you to pick 20%, 25%, 30%, "other", so you feel like a total sleaze giving a normal 10-15% tip.

It's the worst when I'm picking up takeout from a restaurant that also has tables. Like, am I supposed to tip in this scenario? Do I have to go into "other" to tip less than 20% for being handed a brown bag?

I still tip the normal amount when I get takeout from a restaurant that has tables.

Is this normal? I never tip for takeout..

It's not normal to tip for takeout, but if you want to, 10% is the standard tip as opposed to 15% for table service. But again, a takeout tip is not expected, especially for a simple order.

A friend is a cook who says that even at decent restaurants, cooks don't get paid much and they get just a minimal share of tips. So when I get takeout, I tip 10-20% and say "Thank-you, here's something for the kitchen." Sometimes I get thanks in return, sometimes just a sour look from a server who expected something more for putting my order in a bag. I have no idea what they'll do with the cash, but hopefully some of it gets to the back of the house.

Does the US not have the Tronc system?

The cash aspect was incidental. "Front of the house" workers here net a significantly higher take-home because they are the ones receiving the tips and what they pass on to others is typically discretionary. Even many of the best establishments will pay cooks subsistence wages. A few restaurants are going tipless, raising prices slightly and discouraging tips, so they can distribute pay more equitably, but then they can have problems retaining wait staff.

This was my understanding as well. If they just ring up the total and pass you food, there's no expectation of a tip.

I do tip from time to time at places where I'm a regular customer. If I get takeout somewhere near work of home ~4 times a month I'll drop a dollar in once every couple of trips.

I usually leave a couple of bucks, but definitely not 15%. That's for bussing the tables and being polite to my party.

I feel like there's a certain segment of people that would probably tip if there was a tip prompt at the grocery store, or at the gas station.

1. There is a weird regionalism in the outer boroughs of New York City where the grocery stores don't hire someone to bag groceries. Either the cashier does it (which I think is totally normal) or there's someone who isn't paid by the store who bags groceries and collects tips in a little cup in the bagging area. I think it's so weird and it's the one place I've never tipped. I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen someone actually drop money into the jar in 10 years and the jars only ever seem to have pennies and other change in them.

2. At gas stations outside of New Jersey and Oregon, I had always thought you were supposed to tip when someone pumps your gas for you.

I was in a situation where I was getting takeout from Applebees's several times a week for a few months. I didn't tip in those situations, since I walked directly to the door, grabbed a box, and left. After 2 weeks, as the door closed, I heard the waitress complain "that guy never tips." I was mortified; I hate having that sort of bad reputation, deserved or not.

No one likes tipping, but it's become a moral issue. Something transformative has to happen in America to change the situation.

In that situation I still tip, just less, since my "load" on the restaurant staff is much less, no one had to take me to a table, take my order, bring my order, and clean my table. The tip is for the kitchen and for boxing/bagging up my order in that case, essentially.

I hate that even that is required, though. I would gladly pay an extra 15-20% for the food itself if I didn't have to leave a tip & the staff was paid the "normal" minimum wage, or more.

Yea, I always figured tipping was paying for table service, but who knows. Ambiguity around what it's for and how much is "normal" is just one of the many, many reasons tipping is so idiotic.

> Do I have to go into "other" to tip less than 20% for being handed a brown bag?

Yes, of course, you go into other and select 0%. You don't need to tip someone for handing you a bag, and prompting for a 20% tip is shameless.

As a Mexican, every time I go to the Bay area and take a taxi, it amazes me how the taxi payment terminals have the option of 15%, 20% and 30%.

Why would you tip a taxi?

I agree with the preconfigured options part. However it's important to realize that tips often get split between the whole staff. Most of the time you're not just tipping the person handing you the bag but everyone involved in preparing the food.

Some places in America are doing that. It's not always easy - and here's a NYT article that covers some of the benefits and issues: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/dining/restaurants-no-tip...

Locally even here in rural Idaho, one of our best local restaurants recently switched to no-tipping pricing. I'd say that as a diner, I _feel_ like I'm paying more for my meal, even though I always tipped at least 20% before the switch.

As someone who grew up in a "tipping culture" I'd say that the act of tipping doesn't bother me, so much as the pain point of having cash in the correct denominations for things like tipping Uber drivers or valets.

Tipping culture is actually one factor which makes it unattractive for me to travel in the US. Too much mental costs.

It really isn't that hard, pretty much you always just tip a standard amount (average tip is 15-20%).

With tax miracullously not included in price, calculating tip and final total is a fun guessing game that you have to play each time you make an order.

> With tax miracullously not included in price

Not to mention being variable on a city, county, state, and industry (hotel tax, for example) level!

Sure, but if you're not used to tipping, it can be confusing to figure out what services you should and should not tip for.

No. It's simple. Just don't give a fuck and never tip - social norms be damned. If they want a certain amount then they should just charge that amount and cut out the tipping BS.

If you're visiting a culture, you generally try to adhere to its norms as much as reasonable, to avoid causing offense.

This is an over-simplification. It is actually hard for a foreigner who has no tipping experience coming in. It's not what to tip, It's when/where that is the problem.

So sure the general rule is this percentage is for service, but what constitutes service as opposed to the job I'm paying for in the given price?

Full table service restaurant, ok I can handle that.

Taxis... apparently, sure... but again why is there a service component separate to the fare?

Fast food joint. No they don't really do much that constitutes service. Ok fine

Restaurant where you order and pay at the counter but they deliver to table... umm I'm not sure now, plus if its service shouldn't that be judged after, not before?

Bellhops/Luggage people at Hotels.. Apparently yes, but I've had many just out right refuse to take it. Or better yet, I don't have a huge amount of bags, I don't actually want your service of bag carrying (separate from the money thing), but you're insisting and now I'm in the corner on this one.

Massages or beauty therapies.. Fuck knows. Apparently yes. but if I'm tipping you for a fantastic massage service, what I'm I paying for strictly speaking?

YumCha places (Many servers) Hah... good luck working that one out.

There's more I've encountered in my time where I just didn't know and it wasn't readily apparent how/if it worked that way.

It isn't clear cut and definitely for foreigners coming in, its completely impenetrable whether you should or shouldn't.

I've lived here my entire life and I can tell you it's definitely not this simple. I can think of a dozen examples where it was ambiguous what to do: the first taxi I took, the guy who came to repair our washing machine when I was home alone as a kid, the guy upthread here claiming that 20% is the "widely-accepted minimum", someone else on this thread talking about how a waitress complained that he never tipped on his takeout orders (you're supposed to tip on takeout orders??). It's a fundamentally idiotic system and I don't have trouble understanding at all why people like GP would find it unpleasant as a traveler.

That plus the insane practice of not including tax on displayed prices in stores. What the actual fuck.

Its actually illegal not to include VAT on displayed prices in the UK

The part about Germany is not true at all! Sure servers may be surprised if you give them more than a euro when your total is less than 10 euros... Having been a server in a restaurant during most of my studies, i can tell you we definitely did not appreciate no or small tips - 5-10% is expected.

The same is true for tipping in restaurants and bars; it may seem like you're helping the server/bartender, but actually you're subsidizing the business.

It's different because in restaurants and bars it is so well established and priced in, it's really just part of the price.

Then make it a part of the price!

There are restaurants that have tried, several in Brooklyn currently do. I guess we'll see how it all plays out.

This is the same US mentality where businesses are allowed to advertise the pre-tax price of a product. Essentially it's just a way for the seller to lie about their product price (yet the financial industry has free rein to force business to not itemize the CC fee).

Everything seems more expensive in Europe, but at least you're paying prices that already include VAT.

This is like saying, "paying for your food is subsidizing the business." No customer can "subsidize" a business. If anything, you're hurting the business by tipping your servers. If you were to pay the bar directly and not tip, you can't assume that 100% of that would go directly to the bartenders. Profits are generally seen as some percentage of revenue, so those would be taken out, then the inceased wage would mean the business would have to pay more in payroll taxes, so that gets taken out as well. The only way to ensure the bartender doesn't _lose_ money from the change would be to pay the bar _more_ than you would have tipped. But in that case, you'd buy fewer drinks. In the end, the only one who profits is the tax man while you get less beer and fewer appletinis.

It depends my friend worked as bartender when he lost a job in 2001 he made about 90K thanx to tips which was not too far off what he was making as software engineer. So I highly doubt a bar would pay anything close to it.

I too am not a fan of tipping culture. But I don't see it as welfare for Uber, if Uber charged 18% more, and passed it on to drivers, the net effect would be the same.

One thing I think it would do is harm the perceived cost of uber rides. Partitioned pricing works. Anchoring users on a lower base fare + 20% service, is, unfortunately, "cheaper" than 1.2 * fare for most people. At minimum Lyft would have to agree to do the same.

it would be worse for drivers, because uber would take a 30% cut of that 18%.

Balanced out by the fact that the 30% (or whatever the number) who don't tip would now be paying a fairer share, instead of being effectively subsidized by other fares.

tipping is a shady way of shifting the cost and more importantly the risk of employment onto the customer

über barely scrapes the minimum of a viable living for their drivers because they exploit the desperate.

Hundreds of trips on Uber, in Australia -- There is no tip culture here. Out of those hundreds, I've had two ask for positive ratings, absolutely none ask for a tip.

With drivers who have seemed friendly enough I've tried to politely and diplomatically inquire about how fair they feel the system is. Several ex-taxi drivers have told me it is better than driving for an official taxi company in every way, including pay. (Note that taxi drivers are never tipped either.)

I have been surprised by the number of people who have been driving for Uber as a bit of cash on the side, and not as a primary income -- all of them have told me it's "worth it" except for learning a lesson early on not to drive late at night and pick up drunks, as the chances of having to clean up after an extremely messy fare is too high.

My theory on this is that Uber is not 100% transparent on what drivers will earn, offering them incentives and promises that skew the numbers for new drivers. Because there are always drivers willing to try and get burned out, prices stayed depressed.

If you're tipping the drivers off-app, then uber sees 0% of it as a cut, versus 30% or whatever crazy percentage it's become. So it's exactly anti-welfare for Uber. Are you complaining that other passengers are changing the expectation of what the drivers should be paid (and doing so out of their own wallet?)

> So it's exactly anti-welfare for Uber.

Not quite. By "welfare for Uber", they meant the burden of compensating the driver shifts from Uber to the passenger themselves, rather than on Uber to the driver a "fair cut" (whatever that may be).

Lyft is the only major ridesharing app allowing in-app tipping, so they get to set the industry standard here, and in-app tipping is cut-free according to Lyft

https://help.lyft.com/hc/en-us/articles/213815618-Lyft-Commi...

"Lyft takes no commission from tips, which passengers can add easily through the app. That's right — drivers always keep 100% of tips, whether it's a buck or a Benjamin."

yeah they had a bit of a problem with this when lyft's original surge pricing was billed as a 'mandatory tip'. But they corrected it by eliminating the word 'tip' from primetime when the started taking a cut from it. There was about a two week period when they were not in compliance with the laws on the matter despite that I emailed them in advance of change warning them this was going to be a problem.

Probaly get a lot of drivers whose immigration status is "questionable"

Uber is having problems to find good drivers.

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