Adblock Plus announces members of independent Acceptable Ads Committee
acceptableads.com
acceptableads.com
2) Made a google search for "<popular software>" on my mother's computer.
3) All the first results were sponsored links from sites distributing a copy of the real software, but ridden with adware, or worse.
4) Disabled all ads without mercy.
*) Switched to uBlock Origin later.
-----
5 years later...
6) Become sysadmin of a global company with more than 10 000 computers.
7) Distribute Chrome and Firefox to all of them with ad blocking software pre-installed.
Which?
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ublock-origin...
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ublock-origin/cjpa...
Until other ad blockers actually start to maintain their separate list, I don't see a reason to stop using ABP. Ghostery is the only extension that doesn't use EasyList as far as I know. But they too have their own telemetry tracking.
EasyList is not owned neither maintained by Adblock Plus.[1]
Adblock Plus ("ABP"), like other blockers benefits from the work put into EasyList by volunteers.
Ads acceptable only when their subject matches context of browsing and the user intent. And works only when done in non-interruptible manner. If you break context and/or flow, people get uncomfortable, frustrated, angry. Angry people will install ad-blockers.
Some examples:
- if you search for a solution on how to fix a fridge, then fridge ads are acceptable. Google does exactly that in their search.
- if you're on sports stats tracking site, then athletic gear, food, etc are acceptable
- if I search stackoverflow for specific problem with my code - NO ads please, I'm not in a mood to buy something.
- in movies: John Wick is using TTI Glock 17 - having TTI ad near is perfectly fine (people will crave to know what's those cool things he's using). I.e. product placement is the way to go. What's happening on TV? You're watching Keanu shredding through the movie, then it suddenly stops and Chevy ad coming in. WTF?!111
Lots of strong emotions here, as usual with anything ad related on HN. The fact is that advertising pays for much of the internet content you consume for free.
Yes, it's not ideal and the online implementation is poorly done most of the time. It's because of perverse incentives and a lack of regulation in the entire industry that force bad formats, fraudsters, malware, and the pursuit of data and volume to win over quality and user experience.
As much as I don't care for the ABP approach, it's something that can be used to actually make progress and that's what this is, progress. It's finally some outside pressure on the industry to change from the segment of the advertising mechanism that matters most - the people themselves.
I've never had free internet... which ISP do you use?
> It's because of perverse incentives and a lack of regulation in the entire industry that force bad formats, fraudsters, malware, and the pursuit of data and volume to win over quality and user experience.
The whole point of advertising is to trick people into buying shit they don't need.
> As much as I don't care for the ABP approach, it's something that can be used to actually make progress and that's what this is, progress.
This is a step backwards, not progress.
> It's finally some outside pressure on the industry to change from the segment of the advertising mechanism that matters most - the people themselves.
Bullshit. This is a way of lifting the pressure on the industry, and this initiative is mostly supported by players in the industry. Not the people.
>> The fact is that advertising pays for much of the internet content you consume for free. > I've never had free internet... which ISP do you use?
How many payments from Comcast to New York Times happen per year? Hint, the number rhymes with buck mall.
>> It's because of perverse incentives and a lack of regulation in the entire industry that force bad formats, fraudsters, malware, and the pursuit of data and volume to win over quality and user experience. > The whole point of advertising is to trick people into buying shit they don't need.
Or, it's to inform you about the stuff that's out there. It's all perspective. "Trick"? What phone do you own? I guarantee you heard about it through some form of advertisement. And before you say that it's only because you read a review about it - I 1000% guarantee you saw an ad somewhere that primed you to even read the article.
>> As much as I don't care for the ABP approach, it's something that can be used to actually make progress and that's what this is, progress. > This is a step backwards, not progress.
Why?
>> It's finally some outside pressure on the industry to change from the segment of the advertising mechanism that matters most - the people themselves. > Bullshit. This is a way of lifting the pressure on the industry, and this initiative is mostly supported by players in the industry. Not the people.
There's no one on the other side right now - ABP is at least bringing the people to the table.
If you don't like it, then turn on and pay for Google Contributor (see earlier disclosure about my employer) and then no ads AND the site you visits actually get paid.
Progress will be defined by decreasing the amount of obnoxious advertising, until we see that there is no progress and this is all talk.
I do enjoy that both sides are trying to improve the situation, but I still feel like the ad industry has yet to acknowledge that they are the root cause of the problem.
We almost need an advertising "intervention"... If the creation and rapid adoption of adblocking software isn't the embodiment of that though, I don't know what is.
That's exactly the point. Advertising is necessary, but showing that we all agree to a better implementation of it will let us move forward rather than making things worse.
The people in the industry know the reason, but again it's about incentives and lack of oversight. Far easier to just look the other way and make a few dollars than try to go against the grain.
No it's not.
Advertising, and the greater marketing concept, is not that simple. It's about connecting customers looking for wants and needs with the companies that offer them. There is a certain amount of work in creating that desire (hence the wants and not just needs) but it's ultimately still the consumers choice.
Care to explain how this is backwards progress and lifts pressure on the industry? ABP is a company and extension that only makes it harder for the existing ad networks to continue.
If you want to go that route, then none of the advertising companies, or companies that make money from advertising are providing the content either. There are several steps before the content comes from some person's mind to your computer, the ISP is one of those steps.
> Care to explain how this is backwards progress and lifts pressure on the industry?
You want me to explain how an initiative to not block a subset of ads alleviates the pressure from blocking all ads? Seems pretty trivial to me.
> This is a company and extension that only makes it harder for the existing ad networks to continue.
Nope. They did make it harder before, when they weren't taking money from advertising companies to not hide ads, and weren't launching initiatives such as the topic of this thread.
There will not be an internet without ads. So that is not a logical or reasonable goal.
The very vast majority are fine with advertising but the current situation is out of hand - so yes, working on standards that everyone agrees on and moves forward with will create progress.
To be fair, the monetization of "free" content should be done different way: utility payment model is the way to go. YouTube Red got it right, they just haven't pushed it all the way - eliminate ALL ads. Apple Music and Spotify got it right too.
As a customer, I have fixed amount of hours to spent in a day to consume content, so content providers have to compete for this time to get compensated. If you pay flat fee at ISP level, then it can distributed to content owners minus platform service fee. This way you don't stuff people with gazillions of non-relevant ads and there's natural flow to get higher quality content to attract customers to your site.
Ads are not needed to get "free" internet.
Advertising is the most egalitarian method because everyone regardless of money can access the same things. This is an important issue in a world full of great wealth and power disparity.
Also what you're asking for is basically a cable bundle for the internet. It's in the works by a few companies, we'll see if it goes anywhere.
It is right for content consumer: no annoying ads, no interruptions, no more punishment for using "free" content by being blasted with non-relevant junk.
It is right for the content creator: you rewarded for high quality content, not for ads shows (natural flow of interests) -> no need to beg visitors to disable adblockers (this is what some youtubers do). BTW, IMHO, this is also a very good and organic way to "embrace" piracy - just redirect torrents income share to copyright holders - nobody will ever fight torrents after that point.
Ad companies is unnecessary middle-man in this relationship. And this middle-man will be eventually eliminated for good. I understand that you represent one, but there's still market for ad companies in other areas - where ads are relevant to context (like when I'm searching to get a new car or fix my fridge). Ads should help users, not annoy them.
I honestly expected advertising industry folks to recognize the adblock problem and to take meaningful action long before the prevalence of adblocking tech got to this stage of such common household use. Instead, it feels like they've doubled down on the obnoxious ads.
I figured they'd realize that abusive ads will encourage ad-avoidance behaviors, but they seem totally oblivious to the root cause of the problem.
There's that soundbite about a man's salary depending on his not understanding the problem, but that feels like a gross oversimplification of this issue.
Can anyone with the ad companies offer any insight into the thought processes at play wrt adblock?
The adtech industry isn't full of idiots, it's thousands of people like you and me. Most people know how it all works, but unfortunately these companies are currently setup to make money on data and scale by any means - not by quality. The advertisers who hold all the money could do something by only spending it on good vendors - but who's going to tell them that? The agencies who sell them the ad campaigns and have inside deals with their own vendors?
Also the most annoying ads are the ones that show the most "engagement" - precisely because they are annoying. The ad that overlays the page and gets in your face will show more impressions and more time on screen than the less intrusive versions, and so these formats continue to get more money. Same with the outstream video (the ads that open up between paragraphs). Everyone wanted video, there wasn't enough inventory to go around, so these companies just created new spots for it. Unfortunately you can't escape from watching it so their stats look great and now these companies are massive.
What about data collection? Even the FCC/FTC hasn't really done much around proper disclaimers or data rights. Europe is leading the way with GDPR but that's still waiting to play out.
This is a tough industry where doing the right thing doesnt make you much money, and so you get the results you see.
> The advertisers who hold all the money could do something by only spending it on good vendors - but who's going to tell them that?
I guess I always figured (hoped?) that the folks like you and I, but in that industry, would speak up to the folks buying the ads, but you're right: Us folks aren't the ones selling the ad campaigns to the folks with the money.
Vendors can't be that aloof though.. can they? Surely they're aware of the impact that poor advertising campaigns can have on their brand? Are you seeing any hints of that?
> Also the most annoying ads are the ones that show the most "engagement" - precisely because they are annoying.
From what you've seen, would you say that despite the growing prevalence of adblockers, these types of "engaging" adverts are still the most profitable today?
I mean, I figured one of the reasons ad companies were getting so vocal about adblockers lately is that it was starting to impact their bottom line. Perhaps just not enough to spur real change yet.
Do you think ad companies will change their ways when adblocking starts to have a more significant impact on them financially, or do you see them as too stuck in their ways, perhaps needing to be unseated by startups who aren't afraid to push respectable advertising and raise the bar?
One of my takeaways from watching the documentary "Art & Copy" was that advertising can be respectable and engaging without being intrusive and in your face, but I can't think of very many recent examples of that. A diminishing art form perhaps.
Fraud isn't that hard to combat - these companies know who they're paying since you have to write a check eventually. It's a business problem, not a technical problem, but as long as there is money to be made, vendors wont stop their habits.
The major advertisers do have brands to worry about, but there is so much confusion with thousands of vendors and multiple layers of agencies that it's hard for any marketing team to really know where exactly their ads are running online. Some companies are paying more attention now with the current political climate but there's not much change yet.
Yes, the annoying formats are more engaging and get more money and are thus more profitable to run. Buyers want as many video ads as possible so vendors complied and stuck them everywhere they could. This is why you have autoplay sticky videos on every page, because buyers keep buying them and the numbers look good - nevermind silly details like the fact that people hate them and didnt really have a choice to interact.
Can things be better? Will the situation change? Yes. Adblocking still isn't big enough but that's why this committee is progress - it allows the few companies/startups who are willing to do things different to set the rules and finally get the leverage they need against ad buyers. If the only way to advertise to the increasingly valuable but unreachable adblocking users is through vendors who follow these rules, then the market will change in response and the legacy companies and practices will finally go away. The buyers = the money = the power. Shape the way the money flows and change will follow.
I do have a question thought - as a someone in the ad industry, do you ever think to yourself: "We've built the largest surveillance system the world has ever known... for the purpose of selling vacuum cleaners and toilet paper."
[1] https://acceptableads.com/en/about/criteria
Edit: For the record, I whitelist ad networks like The Deck in all my ad blockers, because their privacy policy meets my definition of acceptable tracking (http://decknetwork.net/privacy/).
Advertising is just distributing a message, a small subset of marketing in general. And marketing is connecting consumers to services/products they want and need. Creating brands and desires is a separate art within it but saying it's just a system to sell some toilet paper is incredibly reductive and I'm sure you know it's not that simple.
Surveillance is the act of monitoring, not the system itself. So yes, unfortunately anything that has a large surface area of data access will be at the mercy of greater actors who might (forcibly or otherwise) use that access for surveillance. There's nothing special about online advertising here, rather this is an issue about personal rights, laws and the government in general.
ABP does have a weakness when it comes to privacy clarifications - and as I've said before I'm not a fan of them or their approach - however since the list only allows certain ad networks, it greatly cuts down on the number of trackers since they would still remain blocked. The hope is to get greater rules put in place (by the entire industry) but we have to start somewhere or this never gets off the ground.
ABP is on behalf of the consumer, but you can't change an industry from one side. Progress comes from discussion and commitments to do something, so you need all sides at the table.
Our ad network was designed from day 1 to be simple, static, fast, private and safe. It's one of the reasons we're in the committee, and hopefully this gives us leverage to show other companies as well as advertisers that there's a better way that still delivers results without the terrible effects of legacy options.
I assert that balance, in this case, means all parties trying to optimize for their own best interests. This self-interested optimization, in turn, plays out in a give and take among all parties. The balance is maintained through checks and balances; the parties act as adversaries when necessary to prevent any individual party from gaining too much power or subverting the interests of another. Otherwise the system becomes unstable.
A more important question is: how can you keep advertisers honest? Clearly labeling content as advertising is a step in the right direction, but I would also expect some measures to ensure that the advertisers are being held accountable for the content of the ad and where the ad redirects to.
Then there is the issue of data acquired by the tracking of users. While I am at the extreme end, by viewing no form of tracking as acceptable, any advertising standard that fails to place restrictions on data handling and collection is basically saying that the abuse of user data is okay as long as you don't annoy the user.
You can write some code, wrangle together some sites (or even make some fake ones) and start selling your inventory on the exchanges today. Nobody will stop you and there are so many vendors that you will undoubtedly get paid by some large brands who don't know where all their ads are running. It is a mess, to put it lightly.
So yes, privacy and data regulations are sorely needed but we need to start somewhere. GDPR is something we (as in our company) is watching to see how that plays out.
I'd be perfectly happy if ads could no longer support free content on the internet. It would mean that I'd either have to pay for what I want to read, or the author would have to give it away for free. If every bit of ad-supported content had to go into one of those two categories, I don't think I'd lose anything I care about.
Also you run into more advertising in the real world then online and every company you work for is most likely successful because of advertising.
How do you know? (Honest question.)
Unless you deal with this issue, I'm going to continue to use uBlock Origin and uMatrix. Once sites close up, I'll decide to pay the fee, or not. I'll likely not pay the fee and find something else to do with my time.
That being said, other companies do run 3rd party tags/content and since it's impossible to verify this completely, they're open to malware and fraud. Until advertisers stop sending them money, there's not much I can do about it.
However committees like this and working with adblockers and other industry groups to put some rules and, more importantly enforcement, in place has the potential to finally change things.
Also, it’s definitely not just advertisers these days that make me go straight for the uBlock Origin settings panel. I’d say on 50% of browsed articles, some obnoxious component halfway down the page auto-plays a VIDEO with SOUND. This isn’t advertising, this is just some web site’s utterly misguided thinking in what a person might want when visiting a written article online over a limited data channel! And yet, “ad”-blocking tools work just as well: select obnoxious element, turn it off. (And you can sort of tell they expect you to do this now, because some of these video players are buried in about 6 layers of HTML components that appear to have no real value other than to make it harder to find the element that actually makes the video go away.)
My impression is that this is just an unintended effect of the proliferation of JavaScript frameworks and the evolving web "best practices". Makes it no less annoying, though.
Advertisements in general I accept and I don't have any desire to prevent people or companies from including it in their own content, although, if included, I'll likely view the content as less reputable and the creator as having less integrity. Some people flat-out hate all ads and that's why they have an ad blocker. Their acceptable ad list would have 0 entries.
Tracking is a non-starter for me, advertising is possible without tracking but it's not generally done that way, it works for TV and radio. Most "ad" networks don't actually give a hoot about advertising, they care about tracking and tricking companies into footing the bill for collecting the data. I use my ad blocker as a tracking blocker, I wouldn't have bothered to install it if tracking weren't possible. I have no qualms about preventing someone from collecting information about me. I'd want anything ads that come from a third-party to be off the acceptable ad list (effectively an empty list).
Annoying UI I can tolerate to a point. Most of this is blocked by my "ad" blocker so I only see how bad it really is out there in the wild when I forget to install it. Assuming the ad blocker didn't do that, if things get too annoying I'd leave the site, if I find myself returning to the site and getting annoyed often, I'll filter out links to the site wherever I can. There are handful of really annoying sites that come up often enough that I've made a browser plug-in for myself to do link filtering on. Right now most of the sites on the list have a pay-wall or "ad" block blocker and keep playing the cat & mouse game and winning (good for them, they must imagine Sisyphus happy).
This is how I wish "ad blocking" worked: Community driven list of "bad players", bad being any tracking, dark patterns, or very annoying UI; links to bad players get removed from all pages, I never want to see them or their click-baity titles ever again; white-list for site you want to let track, trick and annoy you; grey-list for sites you want to see but still block in the traditional way. This would also provide feedback to bad players, giving them a chance to change their ways and new players would fear getting added.
Where did you get this info from? Ad networks care very much about the ads.
Potential losses from drive-by-download or other malicious content served by an ad-network: -$30000.00
Some people might produce some gems as a hobby but much of that is also crap.
Dude, where do you think their salaries come from?
>If advertising disappeared, there'd be a lot less crap on the internet.
Also Google wouldn't exist...
If a company is serving good, simple ads, if they don't take up an inordinate amount of space, slow my computer, waste massive amounts of bandwidth, and overall ruin my web browsing experience, I'm fine with it.
But no one is. So I adblock.
If the end result of adblock is that websites stop being slow, user-hostile blobs of ads and third-party analytics, then I'd consider that an overall win. If the result is that websites start relying on reasonable subscription or access fees and that people become willing to pay that, then even better.
Find some other way. Show some fucking adaptability.
https://blogs.ubc.ca/etec540sept10/2010/11/29/the-evolution-...
Why? How about people decide what they feel is acceptable for themselves. The answer is choice between advertising and payment, ideally a slider to dial your preferred setting.
Extremes never work.
Ever since ABP announced the Acceptable Ads program, the biggest complaint lodged against them has been that it's within their control, and so in their interest not to enforce policies strictly in their users' interest. (See https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Adblock%20Plus%20Acceptable%20... .) I am certain that this latest step is not perfect, but it is a step forward, and a sign of at least apparent willingness to listen to the community, and I am glad to see it.
It's like concept of "acceptable groping" from an HR department. Completely at odds with their stated intent and standard ethics.
Sorry, I'm now using uBlock Origin and/or Safari content blockers. I'll go with those organizations who don't have any interest/stake in permitting ads.
If I am going to pay for content, I'll do so. If that's not kosher with the content producer, I'll simply abstain.
Both of these are undeniably true about specific ads, but surely not the genre of advertising in general? I think that magazine ads, for example, are neither infection vectors nor privacy leaks. To the extent that these can be audited, surely preventing malware distribution and respecting my privacy are part of what should be included in the definition of 'acceptable'. (If they are not included, then I would argue that that is a failure of a specific implementation of "acceptable ads", not of the notion of acceptability itself.)
> It's like concept of "acceptable groping" from an HR department. Completely at odds with their stated intent and standard ethics.
While that is a potent analogy, I would argue that there's a difference: most of us agree that there is no level of groping that's acceptable; whereas I _think_ that, even among those of us who would like a web with no ads, the position that there is no level of advertising that's acceptable is extreme.
> Sorry, I'm now using uBlock Origin and/or Safari content blockers. I'll go with those organizations who don't have any interest/stake in permitting ads.
I agree, and don't mean to argue against those options. For what it's worth, I also use µBlock; I left ABP over what I perceived as conflicts of interest, and I am not interested in going back. Nonetheless, since some people do use it, surely this divestiture from a conflict of interest is a good thing, even if it's not perfect.
We're obviously not talking about magazine ads, and an infection vector doesn't necessarily carry an infection (just like not all flies carry disease).
> I _think_ that, even among those of us who would like a web with no ads, the position that there is no level of advertising that's acceptable is extreme.
There are some people who block all javascript. That's far beyond "no level of advertising".
> Nonetheless, since some people do use it, surely this divestiture from a conflict of interest is a good thing, even if it's not perfect.
ABP has always sought revenue. Every time I installed it back in the day, a web page with the author and his significant other would pop up saying something like "I want to marry my fiance, please give us money!". Later ABP turned into a bait and switch. They gathered a lot of people who thought were protecting themselves, reducing load times and cleaning up the web, and then they violated their user's trust by making them targets for the highest bidder. I find that infuriating and disgusting.
We are talking about AdBlock here, right? The context is online ads.
With the advent of e-ink and other paper-replacement technology perhaps your point about print ads not being vectors for infection or privacy leaks may be premature.
What about Ads that induce violent/sexual/medical reactions in their viewers? (e.g. blinking ads causing epilepsy).
Ads are unwanted draws of attention at best, and injurious at worst.
I find that behaviour completely unacceptable, so I block all adverts when browsing the web, and I avoid them wherever it's practical to do so on other media.
"Also, in an industry first, an ordinary user will be seated as one of the 11 committee members to represent consumers’ demands of the online advertising industry."
It's an industry first after six years of the industry Nth of selling out your users. We can't begrudge Adblock Plus's desire to make money. But there's as little reason to accept them blowing smoke up our asses.
http://www.businessinsider.com/google-microsoft-amazon-taboo...
They know that if the ads get too annoying, people will block them completely, and they've seen how much it sucks when that happens.
Hence, if they're smart, they'll try to be decent about the criteria (and might find a way to get rid of the taboola/outbrain clickbait that makes people disable acceptable ads, but is tolerated by ABP because it pays). If not, that's OK too - acceptable ads will die, and their ads will be blocked completely.