Tynt, the Copy/Paste Jerks
daringfireball.net
daringfireball.net
Now, I don't like that they use javascript to break your copy-paste functionality. It's unexpected and unrequested, so we are annoyed and confused by it. I wouldn't use Tynt.
Still, it's worth remembering that citations are a good thing. How many times have we on HN lambasted a site for not including proper attribute to copy and pasted text? How many times have we complained when someone pasted a quote or data in a comment here with no citation?
As unsavory and anti-usability as it is, I can understand the motivations behind Techcrunch and NYT. They're tired of their material being spread around without the courtesy of a backlink, and hope that by making it easier to cite than not to cite, they can encourage links.
In an ideal world, I can imagine that copy-paste would include metadata in some less obtrusive and more user-dictated manner. Tynt isn't doing it right, but attribution and links are a good thing to encourage.
I am sure there will be a force-fitted reason coming.
I don't get the average HN user, I suppose.
Maybe because it's obvious. The point of the article is that breaking copy/paste, whatever the reason, doesn't work: "Who, when they paste such text and find this “Read more:” attribution line appended, doesn’t just delete it (and wonder how it got there)?"
If you copy something from a website (in for instance Firefox) and paste it into Microsoft OneNote (which is awesome, by the way), it will not only paste the content, but will also include a link to where it was copied from so you can easily locate it later.
I'm not sure how much metadata the clipboard contains in Windows, but I know (from clipnoard code I've written) that you can send the same content in several formats (plain-text, word-doc, html, etc) and it is up to the pastee to figure out which format to pick up and use.
I also know that the Linux clipboard-implementation is utterly fucked with X conflicting with KDE/Gnome and lots of things not behaving like you would expect from a unified implementation, and I wouldn't expect anything "sophisticated" like this to work. At least that was the state of affairs from the last time I attempted to use Linux as a desktop-OS, around 6 years ago. Maybe things have improved in the meantime, and in that case please let me know.
With Tynt, it cancels the right-click menu and pops up a search bubble.
Mucking around with browser behaviour is not cool. Usually I try 3 or 4 times in confusion until I realise and promptly close the website in disgust.
Edit: I triple-click to select paragraphs (an OS X idiom); the define-word script prevents this, recognizing not a triple-click but rather a double-click (select word) followed by a single click (activate definition pop-up).
We had an intern at our company for a week, a smart guy who is graduating from high school, and he pointed out all of these things about me. I also manically tap caps lock with my left pinkie.
I'd rather not think about this part of me too much, especially when it comes to picking browser based on how it renders (manically) selected paragraphs.
Chrome 6 on OS X, triple-clicking on the word "WebKit":
I dislike it when something like WSJ puts those 'learn more' links after you highlight something right under the cursor.
Also, this would be really to filter out, the amount of highlighted areas would just be ridiculously large.
Notice that you will hardly or never do this on narrow columns of text.
(Yes, I know it looks like a questionable URL, but it's all I could find since, as I said, it was deleted).
I'd like to see any of Tynt's customers weigh in and explain how they are measuring Tynt's effectiveness. Are any of them using A/B testing or otherwise quantifying the costs and benefits?
I just block it at the home router. It feels more brutal. :)
I suggested that feature months ago when I first discovered Tynt, but they never implemented it or even responded.
I do this myself with any snippets I copy from sites, since I always find myself going back to the site at least once.
Why do they allow JavaScript to modify what gets copied to the copy buffer, rather than just copying whatever you happen to select from the rendered page?
I can't think of any good reason why that functionality should be allowed. The copy buffer should be as off-limits to the JavaScript VM as the contents of my hard drive. So while the developers of this "feature" and the websites that implement it are partially to blame, I think there's a flaw in browsers that's allowing them to do it in the first place.
There aren't nearly enough fine-grained controls over JavaScript in modern browsers, given the really obnoxious shit that's beginning to be done with it (JS-based popups and popovers). Browser developers have left an opening for abuse and, particularly with the last decade-plus of WWW development in the rear-view mirror, we shouldn't be surprised when it gets abused in really user-hostile ways.
yes they can be abused, you can make red text on a green background, or phish someones bank about and steal thousands using this technology, banning it isnt the solution.
The idea that Web browsers shouldn't allow Javascript to do hardly anything is a large reason why the Web's "open platform" is getting kicked around like an empty can by closed platforms.
Do we not fault the creator and instead fault the companies that buy it?
Here's a horse I have been beating for several decades: "Fault" or "Blame" does not obey the laws of conservation. Just because we blame Alice for failing to check her blind spot before making a lane change doesn't mean we absolve Bob of fault for ignoring her turn signal.
It's reprehensible to make and sell this stuff. It's also self-defeating to buy and deploy it.
In the above case, and in tynt's they aren't doing anything wrong. It is more analogous to gun control, without the dire consequences of misuse.
Please don't stick to "the letter of the law" in Ontario. I respect your right to have an opinion about this, but would despair if such a choice resulted in injuries or death.
In Ontario we have no-fault insurance for exactly this reason. If you choose not to respect someone else's signal and an accident results, you are both getting dinged for the cost of repairs. Your failure to "drive defensively" is your fault, regardless of the official rules for right-of-way.
Fault is only of interest if the police end up laying certain types of criminal charges. You might escape fault if the other driver runs a red and hits you. You will not escape fault if you see another driver signal a lane change and you have time to slow down and allow them to change lanes.
If someone changes lanes into you and you had no reasonable chance to react, you're possibly off the hook. But there's really no reason to see someone signal a lane change and bull right through without being very certain that they know you're there and plan to wait for you to proceed.
"Now, the nature of my work writing Daring Fireball involves copying and pasting many snippets of text from web sites every day. So this Tynt stuff probably annoys me more (or at least more frequently) than most people."
I was actually pleasantly surprised the first time I pasted a passage from a Tynt-enabled website into an email and the URL showed up. I send these types of emails all the time and it saves me time.
It pisses me off. I can't believe people think this is a good idea. When the spammers/ad people start using HTML5 audio to blast annoying crap at you, HTML5 locations to figure out how to send junk mail to your house, and other crap that browser makers were too short-sighted to realize were a bad idea to give sites the power to control, then we're going to see a regression in browser features as "does less" becomes the default.
Right now, the sites you visit have way too much control over what they can do to your browser. It's naïve to think that these people will just 'play nice' and not abuse features. The SEO and ad people will take whatever length of thread you give them and completely unravel the shirt off of your back.
all it does is hurt people who want to build real web applications, the complete lack of support for copy and paste is a major major pita in that regard.
but it means 1. applications cant have copy paste buttons 2. if you have a special clipboard (googles cloud clipboard), you have 2 clipboards that can very easily become out of sync.
preventing abuse of the clipboard by completely killing its functionality is like banning apples because someone chocked on one once, there are much simpler solutions (like firefoxs geolocation permission dialog)
Web apps that really need access to the local clipboard should have to jump through some hoops in order to access it, just like they have to jump through hoops to access the local filesystem. Perhaps we could make those permissions persist, so that users wouldn't have to constantly authorize a particular site (like Google Docs) that they want to let access their clipboard, but it should definitely not be accessible to the world by default.
I'm with the group that despises this behaviour (although I think I can't quite manage to work up to outrage), but I'm puzzled by this. Since the (mis)feature has already been abused, I assume you're referring to possible worse future abuses; but I can't think of any. Could you clarify?
This definition sums up my use of the term fairly well (http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/misfeature):
>A feature that eventually causes lossage, possibly because it is not adequate for a new situation that has evolved. Since it results from a deliberate and properly implemented feature, a misfeature is not a bug. Nor is it a simple unforeseen side effect; the term implies that the feature in question was carefully planned, but its long-term consequences were not accurately or adequately predicted...
At some point, someone must have thought that allowing JavaScript access to the clipboard would be a neat idea. And on a whiteboard, it does seem like a neat idea. But in the extremely hostile environment of the Internet, where every feature will be abused in the most user-hostile ways possible, it is a liability rather than an asset.
The Internet has a long history of such features: the ability of a page to spawn new windows, which led to popups, is the one of the most glaring to casual users, but Usenet's CANCEL messages and the ensuing Hipcrime debacle is IMO more to the point.
The prevailing attitude when developing desktop operating systems, which provide tools to developers under the assumption that they will be reasonably careful with them ('with great power comes great responsibility'), fails completely on the Internet. On the desktop, you can assume that obviously flawed, hostile software will get eliminated by the market -- a few people might get burned, but then nobody will install it, problem solved. On the Internet, this doesn't work; if you release a browser with a "feature" that can be exploited to take advantage of users or even to merely annoy them, it will be used, and it won't just be used a few times, it will be used over, and over, and over ... until the feature is hardened or removed (e.g. the BLINK tag, early ActiveX).
I am very concerned that the rush to provide desktop-application-like capabilities to web apps will open a huge can of worms in terms of the new avenues for abuse that it allows, and the overall effect of this -- when the abuse happens in spades, which it will -- will be to cause users to disable those features globally, and distrust web apps in general.
the idea that users should implicitly trust desktop applications more than web based programs is silly, desktop applications havent been abused? users should know what the difference between a desktop application and a web one is?
firefox geolocation / save password dialog, or chrome / iphone application install process are easy solutions to explicit permissions, the idea that the clipboard is off limits is silly.
It sounds like they should add an opt-out though.
Changing the behavior of copy/paste seems quite silly.
Yet another example of why NoScript is a good idea.
Huffington post was the first one I noticed.
http://www.dotsauce.com/2010/03/09/website-data-social-shari...
"Email is used for 70% of all social sharing and accounts for 48% of new site traffic."
For comparison, Facebook only accounts for 25%.
I'm guessing Gruber didn't get a chance to review this report from Tynt.
A relative comment is that this service is not for the "technically inclined".
Personally - I'm used to highlighting all the text I read (not sure why). I would prefer an opt-out option to remember my choices across tynt-enabled websites.
Instead, I end up pasting the thing, and the stupid URL, since the newlines send the message.
Why is this even a top link on HN? It's a stupid complaint. Gruber should surf those sites on his iPad to get rid of the right-click hooks... Or use an older version of iPhone that doesn't offer copy/paste...
Obviously not everyone here agrees with you that it is a stupid complaint.
However, it actually turned out to be quite useful. Especially, given that when I quote I am usually doing attribution anyway, it saves me at least 3 or 4 steps (i.e. post paste of quote, go back to URL, copy URL, go to blog, insert link, etc.)
Or use a text-based browser for browsing your text. I find that w3m actually works quite well. With a few extra programs it can even load images. Fancy that!
but it'd be infuriating if you were doing this, for example, in IM and had to remove 5 lines every paste.
opt in, not out.
I suspect that he's just bored, suffering from writer's block, and needs and outlet to get it out. There, you've cried on the shoulder of a bunch of hacker news dudes. Feel better now?
Here's a direct link to subscribe: abp:subscribe?location=https%3A%2F%2Feasylist-downloads.adblockplus.org%2Feasyprivacy.txt&title=EasyPrivacy
You have shown how to block it, but there is a larger discussion of why or why not it's bad, how it breaks copy/paste, attribution problems, and so on. You might do well to look outside the narrow technical bounds of fixing a specific technical problem to think about the greater issue.
Locking your door on the Internet includes using AdBlock (with easylist and easyfilter), NoScript, Privoxy, Tor, and so on. (I skip Tor, but the other ones are quite non-invasive. Sometimes I accidentally browse the Internet without Adblock, and feel very confused as to why every site is all of a sudden so ugly.)