Hacker News Reader

By contrast, I don't use any products by any of this "gang of five". Gang, by the way, is a pretty good description, considering most of these companies' behaviour borders on criminal.

Apple with its reliance on child labour.

Amazon has been getting bad press for the way they treat their staff (suicides and whatnot).

Facebook & Google's blatant disregard for everyone's privacy.

Apple, Google & Facebook are all turning into awful walled gardens governed by some weird, moralistic principle where anything that might offend an advertiser is Verboten. Nipples be gone. You want to communicate with someone outside of our walled garden? Tough shit.

Microsoft seems to be the lesser of evils these days.

What hardware manufacturers do you buy from that don't have child labour in the supply chain?

I fear you may just be fooling yourself.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/apr/25/smartp...

>As Nokia, which seems to have done more than any other such firm to investigate its own supply chain, told me, "there has been no credible system in the electronics industry that allows a company to determine the source of their material".

Because apple has so much scrutiny, and is able to get away with less, it may even be the most child-labor free option.

http://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/labor-and-human...

How do you Google stuff without Google? Is DuckDuckGo good enough now?

Honestly curious, what do you use for your phone then? Are you going full flip-phone? Kudos if you are, I couldn't do it.

I too am curious as to what you use.

Google is the company I seem to rely on the most. It is the one I fear the most as well. The leverage that company has on media is so disturbing (albeit Facebook is coming close).

Yeah I have tried replacing various things but Google's best product IMO is Google Maps (and Waze of which they acquired) and I haven't found a suitable replacement.

Search tied with location with directions is my favorite technology. It is so awesome to instantly get directions, traffic, know what is nearby with reviews, hours, phone numbers, etc.

Facebook with Whats App has the strongest penetration in developing countries of all companies listed. Many of these places have large, young populations. I would be curious to know how many people exist in Facebook DBs but not the DBs of their own government. This is where I see Facebook value.

The more shocking (yet totally obvious in retrospect to me) thing is that, of the 5, only Amazon doesn't have any way for me to escape their collective sphere of (direct) influence at all. I can switch to Linux on commodity hardware, use an alternative browser, use free alternatives to any MS product or service, and switch search engines, but there's no way to replace the Amazon shopping experience. I'm also not sure what I'd do about maps or phone platforms.

Even if I replaced them all directly, I'd still have to deal with compatibility issues for browsers and software, and it's hard to beat AWS. Switching to a more traditional hosting setup is s nightmare by comparison.

Can anyone here easily escape all of the "gang of 5"?

Meh. I get by just fine without Amazon. Probably order about twice a year from them, and feel kinda bad for doing so... I instead support different businesses for different needs. (Novel, I know...) Newegg for hardware bits, element 14 and adaFruit for more interesting computer bits, Sweetwater for synthesizer bits, local shops and AK Press for books.

Just wait until you have to return something on NewEgg. It's a dice-roll. It's so bad, that you have to "purchase" the "premium" return policy. Compared to Amazon's customer experience, it doesn't even come close. I "feel bad" for buying as much from Amazon as I do, as I wish I could support these local shops and businesses, but at the end of the day, Amazon is winning for a reason: superior customer service and typically the lowest price and convenience. With local shops or other online retailer, convenience is out the window -- you are paying exorbitant shipping and handling, and customer service and returns is the wild west of varying experiences. Maybe you will get the nice rep, maybe you will get the automated "no" with no chance of following up. In any case, I am not willing to make the risk anymore. Stuff just costs too much damn money these days for me to take risks. I know what I am getting with Amazon.

I have never in five years of using NewEgg had a single issue that couldn't be solved by their customer support issue. I also have never paid a single restocking fee in all of the banged up kicked boxes I've gotten through Fedex.

Don't have to go through that hassle with Amazon.

They really nailed it: a big roadblock to people shopping online was returns. It's easier to return something to amazon than it is to a local department store now. A few clicks, print label, take to UPS store.

There may be no single alternative to the "Amazon shopping experience" but it's easily replaceable in aggregate. Every store is online these days - Newegg, Costco/Sams/Walmart, clothing retailers, grocery & food delivery, etc. It may take marginally longer to find and get what you're looking for, but Amazon's only real moat for retail stuff is our laziness.

For pro services AWS is great, really nails the secret sauce. But for individual citizen consumers who want to vote with their wallet, odds are they can divest themselves of much of Amazon if they really want.

I've recently switched to DuckDuckGo as default search engine in Chrome, and have quite liked it. I still miss Google sometimes (especially when looking for physical places etc.), but its easy enough so surf to google.com on those occasions.

You can add !g to your ddg query to redirect you to a google search.

Give me a try:

Apple - using an iMac in work. My phone is an iPhone and I use an iPad for all my non-work and most of my non-games computer use. However, I only converted to Apple products 1.5 years ago and while I would miss the iPad experience, wouldn't have any great problem switching away again. I also pay for additional cloud storage space for my phone and photo backups (0.99/month I think)

Google - I use Chrome. I've already migrated away from gmail and other google services other than search (I do use DuckDuckGo, but Google still works better). While I prefer Chrome to other browsers, I do use Safari on my iPad and could switch without too much trouble.

Amazon - I have a kindle and use their cloud storage thing for my books. Other than that, I occasionally buy from them and have always loved their store and support. However, lately the store quality has been getting worse and worse (impossible to know if you're buying from amazon or a third party, lots of fake reviews and scores etc). I could live without Amazon. I've also used AWS (but don't use it for any personal projects right now). While I quite like AWS, I'd be able to get by just fine using their competitors.

Facebook - I use it but don't enjoy it. Mainly on it because I use it to talk to a few friends. I have an Instagram account but barely use it. I use WhatsApp, but only because its convenient for the few people who use it and refuse to use something else. I could move away from Facebook, but it would cause a bit of a social disruption in my life. I'd survive it just fine, but it wouldn't be fun, at least, for a while. After that, I'd probably be happier and waste less time. Hmm.

Microsoft - don't currently use any Microsoft products or services.

>Amazon - I have a Prime membership, but I'm only a sporadic online shopper. That said, the Amazon shopping experience has provided me with a lot of value. No real alternatives here.

As you say you are "sporadic online shopper" in what sense are there no "real alternatives" there? You can get all the things you can find on Amazon on tons of different e-shops...

isn't that key though? you have to go to many other shops which and play the game of best price combined with shipping. you can also go to ebay for many things as well and people overlook that a lot.

the key seller for prime for me was, I am already paid up so I can just be lazy and impulse buy without too much concern.

>isn't that key though? you have to go to many other shops which and play the game of best price combined with shipping.

So? Instead of visiting ONE website, you might need to visit 5 or so.

We visit 100s of sites everyday for pleasure, and in any case, when you buy you also usually check all kinds of reviews and competing products to come up to one.

Plus, there are well known established websites in all categories Amazon competes -- e.g. Best Buy for electronics, Applestore for Apple stuff, Barnes and Noble (I'd guess, not American) for books, etc, so it's not like one is directly into some huge large web market of rip-off sites if they stray off of Amazon.

You also don't have to "play the game of best price" -- just go for any website/price that looks legit even if it's not the absolute best (unless you're penny pinching). After all just shopping at Amazon doesn't guarantee the best price either.

All of those given that you are, as you said, a casual buyer. If you were heavy into Amazon and buying stuff every week or so, that advise might change, but seeing that you're a casual Amazon customer, switching to a third party web shops is at best a marginal first world problem.

For myself, the ways I interact with the 'gang of five' are:

Apple: Currently using an iPhone 6, though that's pretty much it at the moment.

Google: I find Google Search and Gmail indispensable, and haven't found a better alternative to Google Maps.

Amazon: Sometimes buy stuff on their site, but don't really interact with the company that much overall.

Facebook: Use WhatsApp and (sometimes) check Facebook.

Microsoft: Use a Windows 10 computer with Microsoft Office programs.

Based on that, I could probably drop Facebook and Amazon without too many issues, and finding an iPhone alternative wouldn't be too difficult either. However, I'm not sure I'd be able to easily escape Google or Microsoft, which is worrying in of itself.

I used to think about Facebook the same way you do, but then I got into competitive card gaming. The local community for my game of choice is organized entirely via Facebook. We organize tournaments, carpooling, and so on, and invite each other to related social events.

It's a really nice way to handle a loose network of acquaintances like this. You don't have to give out your phone number, you get Event pages, it's pretty resistant to Spam, etc.

Interesting, I think my experience is the reverse of yours:

Apple - I swore off apple after my terrible experience with the iPhone 1. I've never bought a product of theirs since. My only interaction with Apple products at all is asking users of my software to confirm that it works on OSX.

Google - I have an android phone, and I use gmail, that's about it? I mainly use it gmail due to inertia. I use android because it's the only real alternative to Apple's ecosystem. However android isn't that tied to google, e.g. I'd be happy switching to https://copperhead.co/android/ if my phone supported it.

Amazon - I haven't bought anything from amazon in ages. I don't use AWS.

Facebook - Facebook chat is the main way I keep in contact with non-tech friends. It's the only service where: 1. everyone has an account. 2. has a good desktop experience. 3. has a good mobile experience. I occasionally use facebook events. I don't even look at my "newsfeed"....

Microsoft - I don't interact with any microsoft products. I guess my work's email server is exchange?

I know I'm not the typical end user, but I don't see any of the companies having real utility except facebook.

i have to ask... what terrible experience did you have the original iphone? it was an amazing phone for its time... by any standard. I still have mine and it still works...

also i think its pretty short sighted to say android isn't really tied in with google. that phone sends an insane amount of data back to google, right down to the keys you press on your keyboard.

> also i think its pretty short sighted to say android isn't really tied in with google. that phone sends an insane amount of data back to google, right down to the keys you press on your keyboard.

Sounds like you're confusing Android/AOSP with GApps.

it sounds like you aren't...

So... what do you use to search the web?

duckduckgo

One of the many other search engines available?

> I don't use AWS.

A big chunk of the web does, so you're using it indirectly.

You swore off an entire company over the first iteration of category-defining product?

Did you go back to dumb/feature phones?

When did you start using Android, and with which phone?

> I use android because it's the only real alternative to Apple's ecosystem.

Apple did not even have much of an "ecosystem" at the time of the first iPhone, and if you didn't use iPhones since 2007, which experience are you comparing Android with?

> Did you go back to dumb/feature phones?

Yes for a little while: I was happier with my Sagem myx6 + my Sharp Zaurus C3200.

> When did you start using Android, and with which phone?

With the HTC Magic.

> Apple did not even have much of an "ecosystem" at the time of the first iPhone

It seemed to have a more active one than now! I remember when Cydia first came out and hundred of applications got ported each day.

> if you didn't use iPhones since 2007

I have seen iphones since: friends, family and coworkers have them. I've been extremely unimpressed in the software (though I don't mind the hardware).

>Social media seems so much more superfluous by comparison.

But as you say, it allows you to indulge in a habbit you wish you didn't have. It's addictive, and there's always money to be made off of addicts.

*I say while compulsively using HN at work.

Facebook is a tool just like Chrome and the MacBook. It really is what you make of it. IMHO if it has low utility, you are using it poorly. It has a potential you are not tapping.

Apple - Nothing.

Google - I make heavy use of Google's services. Maps, YouTube, Search, probably a few more I can't think of right now. I guess I could use Bing for Maps and Search if I really had to (it would pretty much take a gun to my head to make me do it, though), but I don't think there's any suitable replacement for YouTube. I'm -- grudgingly -- using Chrome, as much as I dislike it (I still miss Opera 12). One of these days I'll dump it entirely in favor of Pale Moon. All my TV/movie purchases and half of my book purchases are on Google Play. I can get them from other sources, but I'd be pissed if I had to re-buy all my stuff because I abandoned Google. I have an Android phone. I guess I could use an iPhone if I had to (like Bing, it would take a gun to my head to make me actually do so), but I already paid for a ton of apps and I'd hate to re-buy them. I wish Maemo was still around because I still miss my Nokia N900; a return of Maemo on cutting-edge hardware is the only thing that could get me to voluntarily leave Android. I have a Nexus 5X and use Project Fi; switching to another carrier would suck, but I could do it. I make extensive use of Project Fi's SMS-via-Hangouts, so I'd only leave Fi if I had no other choice. My company is a G Suite shop, so even if I got Google out of my personal life, I'd still have to use it at work. I wouldn't be surprised if some services I use make use of Google Cloud.

Amazon - I'm a Prime member, I prefer Amazon when I buy stuff online, but I only shop online sporadically. I could shop somewhere else, though I like the convenience of just going to amazon.com and typing in what I'm looking for. I buy stuff on Kindle occasionally (which I read on my Android phone, not on Amazon hardware), but I actually prefer Google Play Books. I tried Amazon Eats once: the driver got lost, he was a half hour late, and my food was cold; I'll stick to Eat24 and DoorDash. I deal with AWS at work; that's going to be harder to replace, but it's not my call. Lots of services I use make use of AWS as well.

Facebook - This is how I keep in touch with most people in my life. There's no suitable replacement. Messenger has become the only instant messenger outside of work (mostly Slack, occasionally Hangouts in G Suite) and talking to my parents (Project Fi's SMS-over-Hangouts). I have an Instagram account, and I've tried to use it, but I'm just not interested, and all my friends who post on Instagram have it set to auto-crosspost their photos to Facebook, so I'm not really missing out. I have never touched WhatsApp and never will.

Microsoft - I own a Surface Pro 3, and I enjoy the Windows 10 experience on it. I have an Office 365 subscription, but I don't really use it (it came with my Surface, and I renewed it last year because why not). My desktop dual-boots Linux and Windows, but I only boot into Windows for games, and a lot of the games I play are either cross-platform or on consoles, so I don't boot into Windows often. I used to use Skype, but that was mostly for work; I don't work at that company anymore, and I use Facebook Messenger to talk to anyone there I still want to keep in touch with. I use LinkedIn as an online resume. I personally don't care much about it, but it might hurt my career if I had no LinkedIn profile at all (this is purely speculative). I wouldn't be surprised if some services I use make use of Azure.