Hacker News Reader

Comment by overcast | Hacker News Reader

What's the big deal with going to a grocery store, I mean seriously? I can understand a market for wealthy people, who just want someone else to do things for them, but to have enough market that the common person would find this worth it?

Also, who wants someone picking through all their produce/meats/perishables? That's a pretty subjective thing.

View on HN

> What's the big deal with going to a grocery store

It's tedious and a waste of time. Some people enjoy grocery shopping. Power to them. I hate it.

Online ordering lets me plan what I want to buy. This lets me research--and save--my preferences in a way that can't be done in the aisle. It also removes the after-work parade of junk-food temptations. Stores are great for sampling. I like shopping at farmers' markets because I can nibble. But for that purpose, restaurants and tasting menus are superior.

I don't use Instacart. But I love FreshDirect. Not only are their prices competitive with brick-and-mortar stores, their produce is fresher. When someone says "I want lettuce on Tuesday," they message their farms and ensure it's picked at the right time so there is minimal delay between harvesting and delivery.

I'm curious, how long is your daily commute, to and from work? Mine is about two minutes, but some people spend two hours each way.

Five to ten minutes, depending on if it's a bagel day.

Two minute commute? Do you work from home?

Sometimes, but the office is VERY close, right up the road.

Where do you live? Seems almost impossible for any large city.

I actually have a similar commute right now (more like 5 minutes by foot). My apartment is just a block away from the office.

As an aside, if you ever find yourself in a situation where it's possible to do this, I highly recommend taking the plunge, even if it means paying a bit extra in rent. It's been life changing for me.

I completely agree, being '2 minutes away' or so is absolutely life changing. Sure, I laugh with everybody else when I see a $10,000/month, 250 square foot apartment in the center of wherever, but there's a reason it's worth that much. Location really does matter.

My daily "commute" is a few hundred feet, and it's really changed my life. "Ugh, I've got to go to _x place_" suddenly sounds ridiculous when that place is a 3 minute walk away. You can wake up later, have more time for everything else in life... it's very nice. Sure, you might have to take a smaller place, but I'd rather have a small place that I can spend time in than a large place I never see.

Rochester, NY. Burbs.

You're obviously in the tiny tiny minority if your commute is 2 minutes. Surely you can understand why many people who have longer commutes and longer work days wouldn't want to spend more time/effort grocery shopping, when they could be doing something more pleasurable?

Actually what I was getting at, is people don't seem to mind accepting jobs with two hour commutes, but going to the grocery store once a week is out of the question. But I see your point.

Ah I see. Unfortunately they don't always have a choice when it comes to those commutes. Living near business districs can be cost prohibitive.

> people don't seem to mind accepting jobs with two hour commutes, but going to the grocery store once a week is out of the question

Playing devil's advocate, the all-in cost of a short commute is likely higher than that for grocery delivery.

Let's compare a White Plains, NY <--> Midtown Manhattan commute to an Instacart delivery. That commute takes about 1 hour [1]. The average 1-bedroom in White Plains goes for about $2,270 a month [2]. In my neighborhood, Flatiron, it goes for $5,660 [3]. Let's assume 260 working days in a year [4], i.e. 520 [5] hours of commute. That $3,390 difference in monthly rent comes out to $40,700 a year, or $78.30 per hour of commute.

By coïncidence, that's what this guy on Reddit [6] estimated Instacart's markup to be. You'd have to order $87 in groceries (i.e. $150 on Instacart) twice a day every working day to come out even against a 2-hour-a-day commute between White Plains and Midtown.

[1] https://www.google.com/maps/dir/White+Plains,+New+York/Grand...

[2] http://www.apartmentguide.com/apartments/New-York/White-Plai...

[3] http://www.apartmentguide.com/zip/10010-Apartments-For-Rent/...

[4] http://www.answers.com/Q/How_many_work_days_are_in_a_year

[5] 260 * 2

[6] https://np.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/5xj47l/ever_what_ins...

I much rather commute than go to the store. I absolutely hate it.

Do you have kids? I detest all the kid-related shopping experiences (mystery addition of candy to cart, whining, fighting with each other, i need to go bathroom) and it takes about 50% longer with them in tow.

No, I'd rather spend that time playing with them @home or park.

That's a good market for this sort of thing. One of my local chains will also pick for you and you pick up at the store. Anecdotally it doesn't seem to be used much but I imagine you provide a good example of a case where people are fine with driving to the store but don't want to do the actual shopping.

my commute is about 15 minutes door to door, and i'd prefer not to extend that to 45 minutes by adding on grocery shopping to that trip.

I'm in the same boat as you, I'm literally 3 minutes walk from work.

I walk to the supermarket every day (which is about 10 minutes each way), and probably spend 10 minutes wandering around inside even if I don't need to buy anything (I'll find something to buy), just to stretch my legs.

For sure if I spent over 30 minutes each way to work, I'd be less inclined to spend a lot of time at the supermarket.

I rarely go to store anymore for anything and find going to the grocery store so incredibly mind numbing and unpleasant that I would pay a premium to have groceries delivered. I also don't have a car so a service like this helps me get the food I need in the most convenient way possible without owning a big, expensive, depreciating object.

camera pans, zooms into face

I am askafriend and I am part of the "Amazon generation".

You're in an upper echelon of consumers that can afford the luxury of not having to go and pick out your own food. Which is what I was referring to in my original comment.

In 1879 Karl Benz was granted a patent for his engine [1]; 3 decades later the Model T began production [2]. I think it's safe to predict falling last-mile delivery costs over the coming years.

Middle-mile distribution, with a touch of marketing, is all grocery stores are. They just offload last-mile distribution costs to the consumer; Instacart and friends attempt to play economies of scale against that. Yes, they are currently a luxury. But it seems fair to predict they won't be for long.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car#History

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T

I don't really think you have to be in the upper echelon of consumers to afford the occasional grocery delivery. It's more about not being in the bottom echelon, i.e., you definitely do need to have some disposable income every month.

As with many personal finance questions, it's very hard to make straightforward comparisons because people spend their money in such drastically different ways. The person going out to bars every weekend might express exasperation at the person ordering groceries through Instacart every other week, without realizing that they're both spending the same amount of disposable income but on different things.

It doesn't have to be a "luxury".

In the UK it costs me £1 to have my groceries delivered to my door. My nearest supermarket is only 10 mins walk, but spending a few pounds a month to replace a weekly 30+ min shopping trip with deliveries is still a no-brainer.

And that's before I even consider that my local supermarket seems to have higher prices...

It can be particularly annoying to get groceries if you live without a car in certain parts of a city - maybe the nearest full grocery store isn't super close so your options are to walk home 20 minutes with heavy groceries or try to take the bus with them. Or pay for an Uber, at which point for not very much more money you can just save an hour of your day and have someone bring them to you.

Or, maybe it's not hard but still worth $20 to save an hour of your weekend. It's not like this is an expense that only the super wealthy can afford.

It's the Internet Of Stuff Your Mom Won't Do For You Anymore.

https://hbr.org/2016/07/the-internet-of-stuff-your-mom-wont-...

I can afford it, and there are other things I'd rather be doing with that same amount of time. It's exactly the same reason I hire someone to clean my house and take care of my yard. Seems pretty simple to me.

A rational response. I honestly have to wonder how people who find grocery shopping this incredibly stressful experience get through the day.

Personally I didn't love Peapod last time I used it a number of years back. But, as someone who has a car and can conveniently go to the grocery store, I'd probably give Instacart a spin every now and then if it were available where I live.

Like you I use services for various things that I could do myself: lawn cutting, oil changing, periodic house cleaning. I don't see anything wrong with it but I do recognize they're somewhat luxury goods.

> Also, who wants someone picking through all their produce/meats/perishables? That's a pretty subjective thing.

Remember, you're addressing a group of people who probably would drink Soylent if it was sustainable. Some people don't care about the ripeness of an avocado as much as you (or me).

Or perhaps there's room for Instacart Premium, personalised produce selection..

I went without a car for a year, in Los Angeles. I lived near a subway, worked remotely, and used Uber when I had to. The one thing that was still annoying to handle was groceries, Instacart solved that. I only used them for stores where the prices were the same as in-store, and I handled tipping in cash (drivers were also the shoppers in my case).

I was very happy with the service, but my circumstances were pretty specific. I'm now in a small town in the outskirts of a city and they're not an option here. Even if they were, I have to have a car for other purposes and wouldn't use them anyway.

I don't know how they'll expand outside of urban centers, honestly.

On a side note, about half the Ubers I see around here are pickup trucks, which would make using them for grocery trips more practical. Hmmm.

I agree, this can really only exist in very urban areas.

That's not really true although some degree of density is needed. I can't get any of the latest VC-backed services but I can get Peapod and live well outside the nearest major city on a number of acres. Where I live is certainly not "very urban."

It's pretty rare that a popular subway station would not have a convenient grocery store nearby. Major chains don't want to lose out on all that foot traffic. Seems like Instacart would be used as a temporary band-aid, until Ralph's, or Whole Foods, or Target Supercenter, or Trader Joe's arrive on the scene.

speaking personally, in NYC (and presumably other cities where you often don't own a car and instead use public transit) it's quite a pain to get groceries. if you're walking back, you're carrying a lot of crap that's broken to breakage or spillage. then there's the risk you might have too much to carry yourself, then what do you do? getting them delivered is a big help and above a minor convenience for me - i just wouldn't buy groceries otherwise

Would more frequent, smaller purchase trips be better or is the human traffic/congestion at the grocery store in NYC consistently just too much of a time drain to make that strategy reasonable?

-- EDIT -- I'm curious about others' grocery buying habits because I don't use Instacart.

Ok, so let's say hypothetically this takes off. Now you have an army of grocery getters, for every person in NYC that doesn't leave to get their own groceries. All this does is offset all of those issues, to the person delivering your food. I guess if that convenience is worth the crazy money you have to pay for it sure, but I'd just go out to eat at that point. Especially in NYC.

Where I live in LA, the only grocery store in reasonable walking distance is a Whole Foods. It's actually cheaper for me to use a grocery delivery service for basics like milk, eggs, and produce every week than it is for me to buy the equivalents from Whole Foods. Delivery services are a no-brainer in my situation.

(I do use a particular delivery service that has direct relationships with farmers, so that could partially explain why it's so cheap.)

I lived in Venice, CA in the mid 00's, about 2 blocks from the Ralph's on Lincoln. They used to let us leave with the shopping carts. Then they'd send a pickup full of guys to pick up shopping carts every evening. So we would just unload the cart and leave it in our front-yard for pickup. I absolutely loved it.

In contrast, in Brooklyn, they won't even let you bring the shopping cart into the parking lot. But then again, just about everyone I knew in Brooklyn had one of those pull carts and just used that to shop / carry their groceries home. That said, I generally chose FreshDirect over dragging my own groceries around once FD finally came to Bushwick.

> All this does is offset all of those issues, to the person delivering your food.

The person delivering food may be able to use different mechanisms (e.g. vehicles) or division of labor (teamwork) that are not practical for the recipient.

> I'd just go out to eat at that point.

This is not always practical or desirable for lots of people: the sick, those with young kids, the infirm, etc.

Hehe, you sound a bit like a luddite. What's with all these people using the internet? How long would it take them to go down the library and look at a book.

The US is quite a way behind the times when it comes to online groceries. This is a proven market in other countries.

For reference, 11% of the UK now shop for groceries online[1]. We got our instacart equivalent almost 15 years ago (Ocado[2]). That's a HUGE market. Ocada market cap is something like £1.5 billion last time I looked[3].

Now all major grocery chains offer their own equivalent service, you pick a time slot and pay £5-£10 extra to have it delivered to your door in an hour time slot. Take off petrol costs and it's pretty low cost compared to time saved.

We also have click and collect which allows you to pick up pre-picked groceries on your way home.

[1]http://www.igd.com/Research/Shopper-Insight/Pushing-online-s...

[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocado

[3]http://www.lse.co.uk/SharePrice.asp?shareprice=OCDO

>you pick a time slot and pay £5-£10 extra

That much? I usually pay £1 for my deliveries. And that's for an hour slot, at a reasonable time, and I usually only have to book a couple of days in advance.

It's miserable and I hate the experience, I have to figure out what I want and I always leave with multiple things I don't need while forgetting multiple things I do need. Also I live in New York so getting the stuff home sucks.

The problem for me is that ordering online is even worse. It fixes the part where I have to lug the bags home and up stairs, but I don't know how to browse for groceries effectively online. At least wandering the aisles is a mentally tractable concept.

So it just all sucks. I mostly settle for listlessly watching episodes of COPS on my Apple TV and ordering one Seamless meal at a time. Oh well.

I mean, these services aren't going to help you figure out what you want, if you don't know either :) Sounds like you need a personal chef.

You might want to try shopping for ingredients from recipes instead. That and get a recurring shopping list. I use the mix of the two.

In a society with a disappearing middle class, this actually makes sense. A few people at the top won't know or care what food costs, and the rest will do just about any menial task for near-starvation wages. Shiny grocery stores like Whole Foods will disappear as the people who would be impressed simply send their insta-serfs. They'll be replaced by warehouses like Food4Less, filled with scurrying underpaid pickers.

I felt exactly like you until my baby boy was born. Now Instacart and I are pals.

In a while, when schlepping him around isn't such a production and I'm back to an appropriate amount of sleep, I'll probably start going to the grocery store again - but honestly, right now I can't imagine my life without delivery services.

My wife sends me on a 30 minute drive to the grocery store and asks for things I've never heard of, and for other stuff I can't find. I waste an hour away from my kids and don't find everything she needs.

Compared to shopping online, it's quite inefficient.

If you don't have a car and live >1 mile from a grocery store, delivery can be worth it. It's tough to bike with a weeks worth of groceries.

They are growing fast. They have decent margins. But where is the sustainable competitive advantage? Can somebody enlighten me?

They got physical storage on premise at grocery stores who are not going to give that to providers 2-> infinity. It's highly unlikely that anyone beyond the stores themselves will be able to compete, and they would struggle mightily.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com