Comment by dijit | Hacker News Reader

Comment by dijit | Hacker News Reader

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Susan Fowlers case is harrowing and disgusting and shows that sometimes there bad people in powerful positions who are sexist.

I don't think the tone of "the world is sexist" is genuine or fair, Susan Fowlers case is notable because it's definitely the exception, not the norm.

Of course I will be glad when things like that _never- happen_, but if you take the example of murders.. There is usually a huge murder problem when you do not hear about individual murders. If you know how many people a year are being murdered in your town, that means that there is a low enough amount for each case to be exceptional and newsworthy.

Of course, you hope that no murders happen. But that's unfortunately unrealistic.

I hope, sincerely, I'm right about that case and there is no institutionalised sexism in tech, I have never really seen it (aside from one super condescending guy), but of course that's anecdatum. What I _do_ see is a lot of women being told to play victim and doing so, this article is fodder for that.

For what it's worth, I'm not sure I've seen much I could objectively call sexism either. Some, but not a lot. Certainly not enough to use words like "systemic."

One explanation for this is that it isn't happening. Another is that it isn't happening in my "spaces" (networks/companies/etc.). But another is that it is, but in ways that I don't see. I don't know how much all my coworkers are paid, and if someone is receiving unwanted advances it would likely be happening where I can't see it. There are other explanations too, maybe I'm used to some sexist behaviors and wouldn't notice if they happened right in front of me. A lot of the tech culture humor I'm aware of, and have participated in, revolves around programmers being men. It took some time and some serious reflection before I realized this was the case, and that it was a problem.

So sure, no one in my office runs around "grabbing women by the ...," or joking with me about it, but that doesn't mean sexism isn't happening. And I respect and trust my female peers enough to take them seriously when they tell me it is.

All that said, there's one piece of data I simply can't square with "sexism isn't a serious problem in tech." Every company I've worked for, every conference or meetup I've attended, most of the blogs I follow and books I've read - vastly more men than women. To the point that it's almost absurd. Here's what gets me about that - I love what I do! Tech is a great field to be working in for a ton of reasons! Objective reasons! On top of that so much of tech lends itself naturally to inclusiveness. What the fk is going on that I can work for years on teams of 90% men?! This doesn't prove sexism in tech, but it's evidence that something is up, right? And the accounts I've heard of women being treated poorly in tech give credence sexism as one possible and reasonable explanation.

Heck, I don't even think I'm arguing with you. Your posts sound reasonable, I get the sense you care, and I'm certainly less familiar with European tech culture than American. BUT it is worth your time to dig into the, "if I don't see it isn't happening" thing because that can be a trap; one I've fallen into myself.

Perhaps there is a biological difference in the sexes when it comes to interest in technology versus interest in community. The societies which have a stronger social safety net and closer to equality of opportunity for both sexes see a WIDER gender difference in fields like IT and nursing. Compare that to the smaller gap seen India where there is a strong economic incentive pushing women into IT

> What the fk is going on that I can work for years on teams of 90% men?

You have to seperate "unattractive to women" with sexism.

For example it's a truism of our field that to get reasonable pay rises you have to job hop.

Woman tend to want to stick around in a job longer than men. So it's a big negative for them.

Women tend to prefer building close relationships in the workplace. In a field that values technical competence above language and cultural compatibility it's harder to build these relationships. Again another big negative for women wanting to work in software dev.

Or consider that we as an industry love new and shiny and see how compatible that is with women who want to be able to take a few years off for children.

I could go on and on.

All these factors make our industry unattractive to many women... but they aren't sexist.

As a male software dev who works on older legacy software I am constantly judged when I interview for not keeping up with the industry.

Susan Fowler's case was not unique, I know women in tech who can confirm this. These are systematic issues. Why are you so desperate to downplay them, and why do you get so nervous when you're not allowed to frame the issues or control how they're addressed?

Also, your murder analogy is.. absurd.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Susan Fowler's case is unique, it is not. Her case is rare, like murder. Of course murder is a terrible crime and is in no way equivalent to sexual harassment, but is useful as an example of a terrible, but rare case.

I sincerely hope the problem isn't systemic or systematic within tech, but I need to see data to believe this. Your anecdotes of multiple women who have, unfortunately, suffered, is not evidence of a systemic element of tech company culture.

I'm not worried about framing issues, I'm worried about being accurate and precise. One of the parts of programming that I like the most is the procedural accuracy that comes from coding.

This stuff, like catcalling, is mostly invisible to me as a man.

But at some point, you read enough stories, you realize it's the norm, not the exception.

...or you start looking out for it :)

"Susan Fowlers case is notable because it's definitely the exception, not the norm."

No. One of the resounding refrains after that came out was how much it wasn't the exception.

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