Small, slick design makes Dell XPS 13 2-in-1 the PC laptop to beat | Hacker News Reader

Small, slick design makes Dell XPS 13 2-in-1 the PC laptop to beat

arstechnica.com

34 pointsartsandsci67 comments

I just ordered a (non-2-in-1, Kaby Lake) 13" XPS yesterday. To be honest, I was against ordering from Dell after reading about all of the quality control issues (just see the Dell subreddit for the sheer volume of problems), but got sucked in by a very good sale price (am paying CAD ~ $2000 including taxes for a 13", 16GB RAM, 512 GB SSD, 4k Touch). I haven't even received the laptop and I'm already regretting my purchase. My order was "held up" and I had to call in to speak with a Dell sales rep for about an hour to get it to go through. What I discovered later by doing some reading is that essentially what happened is that my order was of high enough value that it was flagged, such that the sales rep could cancel the online order, replace it with a new one, and collect a commission on it. I'm more than slightly annoyed by this because in doing so, he invalidated a rebate of about $200 that I would have collected on the initial purchase (through ebates.ca). I know it sounds outlandish, but this happens consistently to people in forums that I have read. The sales rep even half-admitted it to me that the order was flagged because it reached a certain price threshold. This is Dell Canada, so other countries may have different experiences. Super shady business practice, if you ask me.

I know I'm saving a ton of money over a similarly-(but still inferior)-spec'd MBP (would run me about $2600 Canadian all-in, with no touch bar), but I already have such a bad taste in my mouth that unless the machine is flawless on delivery (the odds of which seem low, based on reading other people's experiences), it's getting returned and I'll take my business elsewhere.

That sounds awful!

I know I'm saving a ton of money over a similarly-spec'd MBP (would run me about $2600 Canadian all-in, with no touch bar),

I bought a MBP 2016 last Saturday. It was defective (basically, the kernel would panic in a couple of minutes, probably bad memory). We called Apple support on Sunday (they actually called us within two minutes on request, no need to call and wait). Although they gave us the incorrect advise to make a genius appointment, we went to the store the next day, got the option to either get the money back or get a new machine. No questions asked. I didn't even have to show the defect.

MacBooks have a pretty large margin, but you typically get it back in service.

Frankly, I don't know where you live in Canada, but in Quebec, anything you order that arrives defective can be replaced at no cost. It's not good consumer service, it's the law. (Lemon law.)

I've bought tons of stuff at NewEgg and never got problem getting either refund and replacement. I bought a refurbished Acer V3 13" (Skylake, 6GB RAM, 256GB SSD, full HD touch screen) for 700$. Works flawlessly.

This is true, but the hoops you have to jump through to prove a defect and get said return varies greatly between companies. I think the point of the Apple story is they do it without asking any questions. From what I've read, Dell for example will have you spending at least an hour or two on the phone or in a chat with someone who may end up arguing with you about whether something is an actual defect or not. There's a big difference in how customers are treated.

As the sibling poster said, the point is that one often has to jump through hoops. According to EU laws, the seller has to prove that the customer did not break an item [1]. However, in practice, many companies make it their customer's problem, because they know that most people do not have the resources or time to sue them. Also, even if a company is cooperative, in Germany they normally have 14 days to give you a replacement (except IIRC if it disadvantages you badly). While that is acceptable in some cases, being without a laptop for two weeks can suck.

[1] IANAL, but according to German law, when a purchase is broken immediately after buying you have the choice of getting a repair or replacement.

I totally agree, my current machine is a 2013 MBP and other than me outgrowing it, I've had no complaints. And it was a refurb to boot! If this doesn't work out by some miracle, I'll happily pay the Apple premium. In a moment of weakness I was seduced by the idea of saving $600-800.

I had a similar experience where the laptop arrived a month after the expected date and it took two weeks of calling dell to sort it out. Given that I can get a new apple product delivered in three days, hassle free, I will never ever buy dell again and tell anybody who will listen not to either.

Did you keep or return the laptop? If you kept it, how do you like it?

I kept it because at that point the hassle was over and returning it would have been more hassle. I didn't cancel it before it arrived because I really needed a laptop.

However, I switched jobs a few days before it arrived and got a work MBP so ended up not using the Dell and selling it a few weeks later.

It was the 2015 model and it was a nice laptop. A friend of mine also got one (same model) and still loves his.

My impression is that they (or at least the 2015 models) are great laptops, but I have no desire to ever deal with Dell again.

Interestingly, I'm looking for a new laptop right now and was briefly excited for this one, but then remembered my ordeal and read others' here. I will probably get a MacBook instead unless I find a decent non-dell alternative. It has to be a good bit cheaper than a MacBook (any) otherwise I may as well just get that instead.

Thanks for responding. I found out today that the 2016 MBP is now in the refurb store, which brings it down to my price point. I called up Dell and tried to cancel my order, but since it is already "work-in-progress", they cannot guarantee that they will be able to cancel and I might still receive the laptop. Either way, I think I'll be cancelling/returning the XPS and getting a non-touch refurb MBP with same specs, except the i5 instead of the i7, which I don't think will affect me much.

How is this not different from a bait and switch?

It's not, really. The salesman claimed no affiliation with the Ebates site/company, which is of course true, and that I was getting the machine as close to "at-cost" as possible (I call BS), but I'm fairly certain this wouldn't have happened if my purchase total was, say $1200 instead of > $2000. I was very close to cancelling my order right then and there, but I guess I'm holding out on the small chance that the machine itself is great and I don't ever have to speak to a Dell rep again. I've been consistently confused that many sites have rated it the "best Windows laptop" of the past year or so, but users are reporting a huge number of quality control issues (coil whine, backlight bleeding, bad WiFi, etc.). Some people appear to get ones that have no issues, and I've read several glowing reviews from HN users, which is a source I trust, so I'm hoping I win that lottery.

Wow. Thanks for sharing this info. To be honest, if I was in your boat, I would have cancelled the order. You showed way more restraint than I would have.

I'm in the market for a new laptop (I'm also in Canada, looking to spend >2K on a Dell/Alienware and I was going to use ebates also).

I've had good results in the past with ebates + Dell, but I only bought monitors, which were under 1K.

So what is going to happen with your eBates - do you have to file a claim with them?

I was very close to cancelling and probably should have. I guess I'm greedily hoping the machine is fine and if it is, at that price, I can't complain too much.

I'm assuming the ebates is a lost cause. I may try to briefly pursue it, but I don't expect them to give me anything. I mean if it goes through properly, I expect that Dell pays some sort of affiliate commission to Ebates and since that won't have happened, they likely won't want to credit me the $.

The XPS is a Linux showcase laptop. I have run Fedora latest on this laptop (which installs like a breeze. ubuntu has problems with the latest NVME ssd). Gnome is the UX to beat in laptops now.

Gnome is optimized for sheer developer productivity and looks very slick. Fedora with kernel 4.9+ is excellent. Everything just works on the XPS.

Is that true across the board on the XPS line? I thought they used slightly different parts for the "Developer Edition" - intel instead of Broadcom wifi, off the top of my head. If it is true then I'm sold - I'm looking at picking up a Windows laptop in the next couple months and was thinking of grabbing a Surface Book if MS get another revision out soon. But if the XPS series is a first class citizen in Linux then that may clinch it since I'll have a nice fallback when I get sick of Windows :D

I'd like to know this too. I see no mention of Linux in the article or the product page[1] (which ars doesn't seem to link to in the article, only link to other articles they've written about dell stuff, which seem like common practice these days. What happened to organic linking?)

[1]http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-9365-2-in-1-laptop/...

I have the non-developer version of the laptop.

Imho the only thing that really differs is the network card. And in the XPS, you can replace your network card. Having said that , I have the non developer version and have had out of the box experience.

In fact, it has been a long time since I saw network problems on any laptop for a long time. The biggest issues you will see are around secure boot and UEFI configuration. Dell has an excellent BIOS that takes care of this.

Lovely machine but I personally can't stomach the 16:9 aspect ratio. This usually limits my options when it comes to hardware. Wish Dell came out with similar but sporting a 3:2 or 16:10 screen (with Linux support).

That was my (ir-)rationale in 2010, too, and I went with a 14" notebook then (HP). Big mistake, the 14"/16:10 displays available in mainstream machines are stuck in the past and absolute crap vs. modern 13"/16:9 displays (except for Apple's?).

As a hardcore terminal/vi person, I can assure you my 2016 XPS 13" works wonderfully for me. I had a chance to compare it next to a ThinkPad Carbon (I believe) in a retail shop that had both on display, and the ThinkPad's display, while in a lovely machine, doesn't hold a candle to that of the XPS.

(However! I'd like Lenovo to keep producing notebooks with good Pro keyboards for my next purchase)

What do you find problematic about the 16:9 aspect ratio?

I'm assuming it's that the web is a vertical medium not a horizontal one.

Low verticality and too much width, which sucks when reading long snippets of code which are 84 columns wide.

I wish more apps had an equivalent to Emacs' follow mode. It spreads narrow content across two (or more) columns.

https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Fo...

I use a 21:9 screen and can definitely report that it does not suck. I can now stack 4 snippets of 84 column wide code across my screen instead of one.

Going column to column doesn't disorient you?

Not at all. If it's combined with a tiling window manager it is bliss!

Surface Book gives you the 3:2 screen, better GPU and a bit more battery. It's a bit heavier but I'm found the build quality to be outstanding.

I have a Surface Book and I will vouch for how awesome the 3:2 display is. I agree that 16:9 is a bit disappointing. It's the lingering dominion of HD televisions converging on computing. I am glad that some companies are re-asserting the unique needs of computing and adjusting monitors accordingly.

Macbooks (aside from the 11" Air) are all 16:10. I find it acceptable and for a strange reason feel cramped even on large 16:9 displays.

This hasn't been true since the Retina screens came out. One of the reasons I was sad to "upgrade" to the new MBP from my 2012 model was losing the 16:10 display.

2015 macbook pro retina here, which is 1920x1200 (or 1440x900). 1920/1200 = 1440x900 = 16/10 = 1.6...

Untrue - my MBPr has a bunch of display options, most of them are native 16:10. You may want to hold off on the upgrade for other reasons, but display ratio shouldn't be one of them.

You'd be surprised how quickly you get used to it. It's definitely a compromise, but you're trading vertical resolution for stability and compactness. Ever try using a 3:2 laptop on an airplane these days? It's not fun...

The webcam shows your nostrils, is it really the PC laptop to beat? Everything else looks good but having such a big issue that will make you look strange during interviews/meetings (i.e. important moments of your work life) makes it hard to believe that it is the best laptop available.

Personally I've never used the camera on my laptop ever. If I need to do a video conference at work I use a meeting room with a camera set up. So for me the camera is a complete non issue.

Engineering is compromises. I'm sure if you write software you have made hundreds if not thousands of them that have a direct impact on customers. If the webcam experience is the most important to you, then maybe you will look elsewhere. But when deciding which is "the laptop to beat" it has to be done in a general manner looking at all factors. This doesn't mean it will be the best for everyone and all needs, just that in their opinion it's the best considering all factors.

I personally have never used a webcam in my 20 years of professional work. That doesn't mean a web cam is not important, just that there are a variety of needs and use cases that have to be balanced.

>> is it really the PC laptop to beat

The problem with the headline for me is the implication that everyone is looking for the same thing from a laptop, when it's obviously not true.

Honestly, this thing checks off almost every piece that people have said they hate about the new MacBook Pro. No USB-A ports, only 16GB of RAM max, low performance CPUs, shallow keyboard. I'm surprised anyone is giving it the time of day around here.

That's because people who want that stuff can simply choose a different laptop. With Apple however, you're screwed if their top-of-the-line product doesn't provide the things you're looking for.

And of course it's made even worse by the fact that you're not allowed to run macOS in a VM, effectively forcing many developers to buy Apple hardware.

I could be mistaken, but I think the article said you can place the WebCam at the top of the screen by placing the Laptop in Tent Mode.

There are bigger issues on the new macbook pro than the placement of front camera.

And this computer shares some of those issues: For connectors, it has 1 USB-C, 1 TB3, a microSD slot, and a headphone jack. Small amount of RAM. Then consider: Slow CPU, lower res screen and arguably worse aspect ratio than the Mac.

Depending on your intended uses, the Dell is worse than the Apple.

For the non-touchbar macbook that you get for the similar price, Dell has better ports (you're forgetting a dedicated charger port when it can be charged through C as well along with two full Type A ports), CPU is better (6560U vs 6360U), larger batter (56Wh vs 52.5Wh), higher DPI, aspect ratio is arguable - I prefer 16:9 for media consumption, keyboard with much better travel.

Depending on your demands, Apple is worse than Dell.

The only advantage the new macbook pro has for me is that it runs macOS by factory, has apple support and the touchpad is bar none.

This is neat, but why do we need Thunderbolt when we've got USB Type-C? I thought that was supposed to be the One True Port moving forward.

USB-C is the connector, most systems have USB3.1 protocol running over USB-C. Some phones have USB 2.0 protocol running over USB-C connector. And the new MacBooks and some new PCs have Thunderbolt3 protocol running over USB-C.

The protocol will self-negotiate and fall back to the most advanced protocol both devices speak.

Then why does the article state that it's got both a 1xUSB Type-C and a 1xThunderbolt 3? Why does it differentiate if Thunderbolt 3 requires a USB Type-C connector?

> Why does it differentiate?

Because Thunderbolt 3 is faster than USB, and allows for more powerful devices.

All USB Type C ports support USB, but only some USB Type C ports also support Thunderbolt 3, so they are labeled differently to show that.

OK but why would they ever have a USB 3 USB Type-C port if they had one Thunderbolt 3? Why would they put a crappy one in if they also have a good one? Why not just have two good ones?

Power and budget constraints set for the laptop. If they could afford it, they would've add two.

TB3 controllers are bulky, more power-hungry, and expensive. The reason TB3 is so fast without using up too much CPU is that its controllers handle most of the processing, not the CPU (bulky/power hungry). They're expensive because only Intel is offering the controller at large scale that companies need.

USB 3.0 and USB 2 do not need such a large controller, they offload to CPU mostly and you can buy it from anywhere, so they're cheap too.

Why have a crappier version of anything? I suspect it is because it is more cost effective and the average customer will not know the difference, as most devices don't speak (and don't need to speak) thunderbolt yet anyways.

The customer will notice the difference when the TB3 device only works on one side of their laptop and not the other. This brings us back to the fallacy of USB Type-C and the idea of One True Plug.

Presumably, it has something to do with the data lanes between the CPU and Thunderbolt controller, and probably only using a 1-port TB3 controller.

I think thunderbolt 3 is the protocol that you can speak over a compatible USB 3 port. Kinda like USB 1/2 ports

The nice thing about Thunderbolt 3 is you can run a discrete GPU over it for lower power laptops.

Thunderbolt 3 uses USB Type-C...

Has anybody tried putting Ubuntu on it? I'm using an older XPS 13 with Ubuntu 16.04 for non-work-related tasks and overall it's convenient enough I'm ready to stick with XPS 13 for the next one.

Dell sells and supports a Developer Edition of this laptop with Ubuntu 16.04.

In January I had every intention of picking up one of these. They are beautiful and seemed to have everything I wanted. But I took a moment to look again at alternatives and I'm glad I did. After doing some research it seemed clear that the HP Spectre x360 was actually the ultrabook to have.

I'm not sure how good Linux support is, but with a 512gb M.2 SSD, 16GB, a U series Kaby Lake processor, and better battery life than the XPS, it felt like a non issue. I have no problems running VS and my CentOS VMs.

I've got a 15" HP Envy with a Skylake, and its performance as a Linux machine has been flawless. I also put Windows 7 on it, and that was significantly more hassle.

Does this charge over USB-C?

Edit: seems so, https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/DSC06...

just to add, its available with preinstalled ubuntu 16.04 LTS from dell.

I don't think it is. Not seeing that option at http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/productdetails/xps-13-9365-2-...

maybe its not available in US? Its available in some eu countries.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/3161861/linux/the-new-dell-xp...

http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-9360-laptop/pd?3x_n...

select OS option above.

Here is the original blog from dell engineer himself. https://bartongeorge.io/2017/01/09/welcome-the-new-ubuntu-ba...

Different models. OP was talking about the new 9365 (2 in 1), not the 9360.

How does Dell warranty work? ie: If I buy it from another country?

Reason I go with Apple laptops is that their warranty goes across borders. Just enter a serial number, and then your done. No more receipts, etc.

Nice upside down logo. Really slick!

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