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Comment by jbw976 | Hacker News Reader

the in app tipping that lyft provides is what seals the deal for me. the drivers are performing a service for me and having an integrated way to enhance their compensation is really nice. a lot of the drivers have a hard time making a good living especially considering vehicle related costs are all on their shoulders. I'm happy to have a 1-click way to give them a bit extra.

I've never understood why uber doesn't let you tip from within the app. it further solidifies the perception that uber doesn't care about its drivers. they can't wait to replace all their human drivers with a self driving fleet. can the same be said about lyft? maybe. but at least the humans are being compensated better by lyft right now.

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Counterpoint: one of the reasons I prefer Uber is that it doesn't allow or encourage in-app tipping. Tipping sucks, is economically dysfunctional, and socially awkward. If the drivers aren't making enough from base fares then the fares need to go up - it's not my job to be a charity.

I completely agree, and was halfway through writing a similar comment when I saw your post.

I actively make choices for things like transit and food which reduce how much I have to think about tipping. I don't like having to judge someone's service, and decide how much it's appropriate to tip them based on some unwritten societal rule.

The signal that hiding tips away sends is "the service provider is being compensated already", and if you want to make an extra effort to pay them more you can, but it's not required of you.

I'm absolutely in favor of Uber/Lift charging whatever is necessary to pay their drivers properly. Similarly, I love no-tip restaurants which pay their servers and kitchen staff living wages.

> I don't like having to judge someone's service, and decide how much it's appropriate to tip them based on some unwritten societal rule

I use neither Uber nor Lyft, so may wrong here, but don't both services strongly encourage passengers to rate drivers based on the quality of the ride?

Why is it awkward to judge someone based on a tip, but not on attribution of stars?

I didn't say the rating wasn't also awkward. Though that's sort or convenient in its way, once you understand its unwritten social rule, since that boils it down to me just having to make a snap decision of "was this ride bad enough that I want this driver to get fired? If so... 4 stars."

(Yes, I think the 1-5 star rating scheme has its own notable flaws based on how Uber seems to use it.)

> I'm absolutely in favor of Uber/Lift charging whatever is necessary to pay their drivers properly.

Ok, great, but they don't, so the practical effect of your stand against tipping is less money for these drivers.

And why? Because you find it socially awkward? That's why it's better to have it in the app. You just get out of the car and it drives away. Then you select the tip in the app. Way better than Uber's system of "hand the driver some ones."

> The signal that hiding tips away sends is "the service provider is being compensated already", and if you want to make an extra effort to pay them more you can, but it's not required of you.

I agree that's the signal, but that doesn't mean it's true.

> I agree that's the signal, but that doesn't mean it's true.

Eh, public transit it is, then.

Not that this is a sacrifice for me. I also hate how chatty most Uber/Lyft drivers are, so I rarely use them anyway.

Cool, I use public transit heavily (subway and buses) and I'm a fan.

Thank you. Just pay a reasonable wage and don't have them rely on begging for tips. Encouraging tipping is basically saying "We don't pay our workers enough so you, consumer, must make up the difference, or feel bad when you don't."

I was discussing this with a driver who drives for both Lyft and Uber. His basic stance was that tipping was a difference in kind for tipping, rather than amount, so the living wage argument may not hold. Uber tips tend to be in cash, which is appealing, and may be larger because drunks just hand over twenties, but are rarer, while Lyft tips are more reliable.

Couldn't agree more. It's THE reason I use Uber, instead of lift. Tipping has gotten out of control in this country. It's supposed to be reserved for when someone performs an exceptional service, not to subsidize their wage.

This sounds an awful lot like "I'm taking advantage of the assumption of tipping to avoid paying a fair price for the services I receive."

You're making an assumption (and a false one) that I have a problem paying a fair wage. That couldn't be further from the truth.

I would gladly pay 15% more for a service, if I knew that the tip was included.

My problem with tipping is that it's become unclear when to tip, and when not to tip.

You tip you server, ok. You tip the bus boy at the hotel, ok. You tip your hair stylist, ok. You tip your Uber driver? huh, ok... Tip the guy who just made you a smoothie? Tip your starbucks barista? Tip the bus driver?

Nobody can clearly define when to tip, and when not to. It's entirely arbitrary, which is a horrible system to begin with. Never mind the fact that employers should pay fair wages to begin with. The fact that anyone DEPENDS on tips to get by, seems like the employer passing the buck.

Mr. Pink, just cough in your goddamn buck like everybody else.

But when a driver goes above and beyond, it feels good to tip. One driver offered me water and a towel when it was too hot. He genuinely gave a shit about me and lyft made tipping easy. I found lyft's customer service better.

Honesty lyft's pink branding and mustache logo gives off a fun and underdog vibe. Not many companies go for pink. Their 50% female executive represention probably plays a role.

Uber on the other hand with black/silver gives off a very strong corporate "we're gonna fuck you over if you don't play by our rules" vibe.

This are emotional arguments but that's what branding is all about.

>But when a driver goes above and beyond, it feels good to tip. One driver offered me water and a towel when it was too hot. He genuinely gave a shit about me and lyft made tipping easy. I found lyft's customer service better.

Other people's livelihoods shouldn't depend on your sense of generosity. When I go above and beyond at my job I get a pat on the back and satisfaction of doing a good job. I don't do good work out of mercenary sensibilities.

I really don't understand what the issue is with tipping. I am American and I love the custom. I feel being able to pay directly the person I have received a service from is very powerful. I think it does incentivise a better work ethic and it's a very social way of affording a middle class income. Now states that reduce the minimum wage for tip workers, that's evil (I live in California).

There are many issues with tipping

This article and the research behind it

http://www.esquire.com/food-drink/restaurants/a23132/why-tip...

3. The percentage basis makes no sense.

4. Better service doesn't actually beget better tips.

5. It perpetuates racism and sexism.

6. It rewards arbitrary people.

If you go out and eat a fantastic piece of food do you think the person who should be rewarded is:

* The person who actually made the food.

* The person who carried it to your table.

When you go out and eat a fantastic piece of food, how often do you speak with the chef and compliment him?

FYI in most jurisdictions the tip is shared by both wait and kitchen staff, by law.

People are cheapskates and get uncomfortable when confronting that reality so they want to blame the system instead of looking at themselves

So people use Uber because it costs less to ride and because it does not allow tipping idea being that companies should pay more. This is a sound logic.

I've never understood why tipping, specifically when it is completely optional, threatens people or turns them off. If you don't tip a Lyft driver, they aren't going to give you a dirty look or treat you any differently, especially since you get to rate them on their service.

You can complain that people should be paid a fair wage, but they aren't. I wish for many things, such as the end of warfare, but I accept the current reality that I live in and that I don't care enough about tipping to dedicate time and energy to affect its change. I'm not going to go out of my way to change some business's wage policy. It's sub-optimal, but what isn't? Humans are terrible at setting the correct prices for goods and services. The market does not provide either for a number of reasons (eg we don't take externalities into account, love to socialize losses and privatize gains without getting caught, etc.) It's been this way for longer than I've been alive and has shown no signs of abating.

If it bothers you that there is an OPTION to tip in an app, there's some insecurity there for a reason. Honestly, I like the system. I tip well at bars. As a result, bartenders will occasionally give me free drinks, engage in meaningful conversations, or just really go out of their way for me.

To me, it's fairly obvious that it can be stressful having to choose between a number of options in cases where the social expectations are unclear. It's partly for this same reason other situations can be stressful, like first dates, job interviews, encounters with police, discussing bad news, etc.

Now, I don't think that's sufficient to say that all tipping is to be avoided, but I certainly understand the urge to avoid it, ceteris parabus.

Don't drivers also rate their passengers?

> bartenders will occasionally give me free drinks

Isn't this just the bartender stealing from his employer? Did he use your tip to buy the alcohol?

...or is the bartender building marketshare?

> If the drivers aren't making enough from base fares then the fares need to go up - it's not my job to be a charity

The way I view it, I've already gotten a discounted cab ride thanks to the VCs. So the very least I can do in my fortunate situation is share a dollar or two for the guy who drove me home at 3am.

It's a dollar; you folks making six-figures are really gonna hold out against a person who drove you across town just 'cause you disagree with the currently (broken) system?

As I posted in another thread: it's really sad that the crazy state of tipping in the US makes people think like this.

I want to have the option to tip for exceptional service or if I really enjoyed taking to the driver, but I do not want to feel obliged to, which is the issue currently with the low wages.

You have cash in your pocket.

Why give money when you can give "stars"?

Uber wanted to make payment so easy you don't even have to think about it. Tipping seriously gets in the way of that ideal, even if it's purely digital.

The first few times I used Uber, the most impressive aspect of it to me was that at the end I could literally just get out of the car. It was done. Payment was already handled. This was a tremendous improvement over the experience with taxis, where paying could be stressful and awkward and not even easy.

To this day I'm strongly against tips for Uber. Uber already has a rating system. I don't need the ability to decline to tip to communicate that a driver did poorly: I can just give them a low rating. So the only argument remaining for tipping built into the app is to supplement their pay, but that is a slippery slope that will quickly hurt drivers.

As soon as drivers routinely expect and rely on tips, that opens up Uber to reducing their rates to grab more customers. Drivers will become totally reliant on tips to make a decent wage, just like servers are in the restaurant industry. But not every customer will tip appropriately, which means one of two things:

(1) Either the drivers' overall compensation will go down due to the non-tippers, or

(2) The expected tips will go up, so that tipping customers effectively subsidize non-tipping customers.

> As soon as drivers routinely expect and rely on tips, that opens up Uber to reducing their rates to grab more customers.

In Atlanta this happened last fall. [Some] Uber drivers now have tip jars square readers ready.

Personally, being pressured to top is bad UX. I feel bad when presented with the prompt via square et al.

I'd much rather have the price baked in like other countries.

I would rather have it baked in, too. But since it's not, and tipping is de facto part of the compensation for service jobs, the fact that you feel bad when you're presented with the tip prompt and choose not to leave one is not really a bad thing.

> being pressured to top is bad UX

You're not the customer of Square. It's great UX if your goal is to get more people tipping.

(I've said this before at food trucks)

Totally valid point.

But I changed from Chevron to Shell because of their bad UX for Safeway rewards integration, and I've noticed that Philz never asks me to tip on their Point of Sale system while places like Signtglass do. And my noticing will likely have affected by purchasing behavior.

Uber's claim is that black people are known to tip poorly, and so drivers would be incentivized to cancel their rides in favor of fares they expect will tip better. Therefore they don't allow tipping to prevent racism. Supposedly...

Couldn't drivers also negatively rate passengers in retaliation if they don't tip?

They can and hbr wrote an article about it.

https://hbr.org/2016/05/ubers-new-tipping-policy-is-a-mistak...

That is in no way true.

Suggesting that black people are somehow to blame for Uber not allowing in-app tips is one of the most out there things I've seen on HN, and that's saying something.

Tipping has been studied and has been associated with discrimination on gender, race, and class.

http://www.esquire.com/food-drink/restaurants/a23132/why-tip...

It's a long way to go from that to saying that Uber have enacted a policy specifically because of it.

Uber enacted their tipping policy to keep total control over prices and moreover to keep prices low.

When they were sued by their own workers because of this and had their backs against the wall, they had to claim it was because of this racist hand-wavy BS.

It was a ret-con and an incredibly cynical and insulting thing to do, but that's now the official reason they didn't allow tips.

This is the claim made by Uber spokesmen. I also heard it directly from an Uber manager. It disgusted me too.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2016/04/27/uber-resists...

They changed their tipping policy in May 2016 in response to a contractor lawsuit.

Drivers are now allowed to ask for tips; I've had drivers with tip jars and squares available. And I've seen reddit discussions of drivers calling riders who don't tip dicks.

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