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Comment by badminton1 | Hacker News Reader

Dwarf Fortress is incredibly hard to learn.

Gnomoria and Rim World might be simpler games to learn. However not as deep or complex.

I don't think "incredibly hard" is a good term.

In more development terms, to me, "incredibly hard" is embedded assembly programming (im probably not even using the right term for this) ...

The level of hard i would put DF at is "learning VIM"... which I think is apt, because 1) its a steep but rather short learning curve to get around, 2) over a while you naturally get better at navigating/commanding/etc and 3) there are plugins and "distributions" just like vim, to make it easier for a beginner, etc.

Now that I write this out, im thinking VIM is the perfect analog for DF :)

[NOTE] I'm a DF n00b. I have less than 5 hours playing. I'd say it took me about 30 minutes to "get it" though, and now I'm actually playing what I would consider "normally"

It may be instructional that I think learning VIM and DF is harder than assembly programming?

I think vim/emacs is an apt comparison.

I like your analogy, but what's missing is that the vim interface is much (much!) more powerful than the DF interface.

Any number of DF players who are also UI designers (hey, there have gotta be a lot of 'em) could propose a dozen minor interface changes that would make DF feel more consistent, and easier to learn without even changing any of the mechanics of the game. You couldn't say that about vim. (Or, if you could, I'd love to hear your interface change proposals for vim!)

Move the default movement keys to the home position -- shift them right by one. Right now I have to choose between shifting my hand off the home position or my index finger doing double duty. JKL; is very comfortable to move around with.

But that's totally possible with a slight change in .vimrc. I would argue that since you can change it in .vimrc your proposed rebinding is still part of the vim "interface".

This sounds right. And there's a reason more people don't use VIM, or play DF.

Indeed, the high barrier of entry, but for those of us who have entered, we enjoy a very privileged membership that just keeps on giving.

I'm a ten year veteran, and have helped many other "hardcore" gamers to get into it, but none of them have stuck with it, citing difficulty. It's a shame, as it has more to give than any other game.

Agreed but it's quite fair in the context of modern gaming. A lesser game might even have a tech tree and a progression acting as a tutorial. "You have reached a population of 20! You can now build cabinets and statues!"

Please do not get me wrong. Dwarf Fortress is a fantastic game.

The only thing I am saying is that the usability is complex with respect to what I am used to, in games.

It reminds me of using flight simulators. Many instruments and controls that you need to learn and understand.

Because I am old now and am not as easily entertained by being in fantasy worlds all by myself any more, I can't handle it. But games like this that are either MMOs or small scale persistent worlds where you friends can join (like minecraft) are still really fun for me.. Building an amazing Dwarf Fortress would be much more fun if your buddies are in the world too.

I disagree, respectfully, I think that the stop-start nature and complex workings of DF would mean that any sort of co-op would severely constrain the game, well at least with respect to fortress mode.

I suppose there could be an argument for taking adventurer mode and making it more like a MUD but I'm not really an AM person.

I would love to play a DF equivalent on a dyson ring. The cooperative elements would be for ring maintenance - keeping the station-keeping thrusters in good health, keeping the trams between territories running, whatever. The balance of the world play could certainly be enough for anyone even dividing the ring up into per-player planet-sized chunks.

You'll have to invest a couple of evenings reading the tutorials/installing the right stuff/setting up a playable world/getting lost in the awful menus/etc. before you get to have fun, but it is worth it!

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