Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]
gwern.net
gwern.net
I have a friend who was raised in Vietnam of pure mainland Chinese parents (from the diaspora). Educated in Chinese schools (there was a huge Chinese community in Saigon where the Chinese dominated business), he spoke primarily Chinese until the age of 14. In his 14th year, Chinese schools were forced by the Vietnamese government to use the Vietnamese language in all classes, so he had to learn formal Vietnamese, and to read, write and speak Vietnamese in, say, geography class.
In summary we have an individual who
- culturally is classical Chinese,
- was born in Vietnam,
- is a naturalized US citizen,
- whose Chinese cultural habits and language date from the time of his parents' migration (circa 1920's) and are classical (non-Mandarin) Chinese,
- whose Vietnamese language and cultural skills are weaker, dating from middle school on,
- who also took English as a foreign language beginning in middle school,
- who also learned Mandarin so he could speak to his brother's new wife, a mainland Chinese woman.
Anyway, he worked in an office in the USA with mainland Chinese, Hong Kong Chinese, Vietnamese, Taiwanese, and the usual mishmash of other Americans. Astonishingly, each of the Chinese groups, and the Vietnamese group, treated him as an outsider. With the exception of the Vietnamese, these groups tended to promote from within and to prefer their own group in inter-office politics. He went so far as, at one point, to specifically inquire into people's beliefs and was surprised to find that there was _no_ group that accepted him as a member, except the Americans! This despite the fact that everyone liked him.
Recently, for reasons unknown to me, he has become a flaming pro-mainland Chinese proponent vis-a-vis the USA, despite having no direct ties to the current Chinese culture or government. Many times I've had to point out to him that the only thing he truly is, and the only culture that truly accepts him, is "American".
I really got his goat by pointing out that he has little in common with mainland Chinese, certainly neither language nor culture, and that he is to them, culturally the equivalent of their grandfather or even great-grandfather.
China is what happens when you enclose a really big population in a box. And this box is really comfortable; you have little incentive to go outside of it. You have the company of millions of other Chinese folk, and Chinese culture and its derivatives (to this day many of us see Korea and Japan as copies of Chinese culture) can entertain us indefinitely. The average Chinese has little incentive to run off and seek interaction with other races, other bits of culture. I suspect (but might be wrong) language barriers also play a role in this.
Even today in places outside China, you can notice how Chinese will naturally gravitate toward each other into little "bubble" communities. The fact that there are just so many of us makes this very easy. I know other cultures do this as well, but like I said, we have the population advantage.
Chinese are racist because we have very limited experience with other, non-East Asian cultures. Oftentimes you will see Chinese follow straightforward stereotypes regarding ethnicity. For example, Chinese attitudes toward blacks easily stem from what they see in the news or media (Movies, crime reports, etc.). Confirmation bias does play a bit in here: Chinese culture already has a pretty simple ideal in which darker-skinned people are unfortunately shafted and considered undesirable.
When it comes to history, Chinese people again suffer from the box-syndrome - many are proud and fervently study Chinese history, and thus barely scrape the surface of world history. My immigrant father could recite many Chinese emperors by name, but knows nothing about American, European, even Japanese history (except WW2, of course). One thing I found interesting was that my dad is totally fine describing the brutality of ancient and medieval Chinese rulers, but as we get closer to the present, the spotlight turns to Japan and then things get quieter. Even today he watches media pretty much exclusively on Chinese apps - no Youtube, etc. I can tell there's so much there for him, he has no incentive to look elsewhere.
Hopefully, as more Chinese traveling overseas, and China attracting more foreigners into the country, local populace are exposed to more diversity, and start to form their own opinions based on personal experiences instead of biased media reporting and hollywood.
Debating whether it's lying or "lying" seems a lot like debating whether it's racism or "racism."
You says chinese is one race. You mean Hans. If not we are not of one race. You cannot have your culture hans and fighting Mongolian, tibetian, manuchuain ... all your thousand of years literally. Then suddenly they are chinese because in the last 100 years someone decided to occupy these people's land then they are chinese.
What is china? Heard of Great Wall. Why is there a Great Wall. Has the Qing emperor thought the Hans are not enemy to be killed and contained.
We may say you are European. But let us not kid ourselves when thing boiled down you are english, French, ...
We may say we are Soviet Union. Brotherhood ...
And these we are chinese under communism is shameful.
There are more than politics. But killing culture, suppressing people, ... I am ashame to be associated with this gang.
I know more than you, I love my poems from tong down to mao. I share my many dreams that one day we will kick this communist ass out and we will ....
But who are we. That is a question.
As to chinese minge with their own. Do you know all chinese education now has a foregein language and also most top guys descendent run. They do not feel comfortable with each other over there. Or here.
Btw, Korea and japan may get a bit from us. But like china people copy apple to make little rice does not mean they are American. A lot of our vocabulary is coming from japan. Chinese do not have the word for society.
We are all human. At least for now (well we are in the hacker group). We do not deny our heritage. But not recognise who you are ... you love nazi because you are germany, do you?
Let us be human first. And do not look at a black face and then say he is africn American. He is human first. He may come from a part of Africa you do not know. But do not think first he is an African.
I am not chinese. You are not as well.
That's pretty close to what happened in most European countries too. French, Italian and German only became unified cultures 100-200 years ago, based on the dominant culture of the rulers, I wouldn't expect China to be any different.
I disagree with the assertion that Chinese are racist. You will never see a restaurant in China that says "No ---- and dogs" except in early 20th century Shanghai. I agree that Chinese are usually less sensitive about racial topics. They will carelessly call a foreigner "洋鬼子", but that's as bad as "Yankee" goes IMHO.
I've heard that in US Chinese guys usually date Chinese girls. But really can we blame that they are racists?
> When it comes to history, Chinese people again suffer from the box-syndrome - many are proud and fervently study Chinese history, and thus barely scrape the surface of world history.
Disagree again. If you really study Chinese history, you won't find much pride there.
Very poorly chosen example, because "No Japanese and dogs" signs are incredibly common across China. [1][2][3]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_Chi...
[2] http://beijingcream.com/2013/02/no-dogs-but-also-no-japanese...
[3] http://chinahopelive.net/2012/09/17/japanese-and-dog-no-near...
> They will carelessly call a foreigner "洋鬼子", but that's as bad as "Yankee" goes IMHO.
"洋鬼子" literally means "foreign devil". Are you serious?
Way to not take connotations into account. If you take everything literally, you'll be offended everywhere.
I call some of my best friends "bastards". Am I implying that they're born out of wedlock?
Funny you should mention that. The relation between two people is actually quite friendly except political occasions. Also the Japanese hate is due to the world war 2, not racial. In fact we are one race.
> "洋鬼子" literally means "foreign devil".
'devil' is a strong word. It's more like 'foreign strange men'.
It is not obvious to me that the American approach of racial quotas in high education (which incidentally penalizes Asians very heavily today, perhaps more than any other group) is particularly different from the Soviet approach of racial quotas in high education (which to some degree penalized ethnic Russians by reserving spots for people from the other "republics", and heavily penalized students from "overrepresented" minorities, quite similarly to penalizing whites somewhat and Asians more heavily in today's US.) It doesn't seem different from Israel's affirmative action where Arabs get preferential treatment at the expense of Jews, either. Perhaps it seems reasonable to some to blame Chinese for not having racial quotas which supposedly "address" racism, but especially since Asian Americans get heavily penalized in the scheme, it's hard to respond to an argument from a Chinese person that the scheme doesn't address racism but institutionalizes it.
Nor is it obvious to me whether the average Westerner of any particular group is more or less racist than a citizen of Russia, including both ethnic Russians and those who are not. It's fairly obvious that the Westerner might be more reserved in expressing racist views, fearing repercussions, although at other times the Westerner will actually be very loudly racist if it is currently in vogue to be racist against this particular race (right now anti-white sentiment is celebrated, which, whatever its reasons, will surely produce terrible results; the broader point is that it's not obvious that being racist against one race at one time is fundamentally different than being racist against another at another time, and even if we agree that it's done for very different reasons, it does not follow that it will produce very different results.)
I'm not saying that Russian attitudes toward race are the same as Western attitudes, just that the report's claims about the Russian society and the Western societies which I kinda sorta know things about (though it's hard to summarize millions of people very precisely or to inform oneself about them fully in the first place) make me suspicious with respect to its main topics, Chinese attitudes to race. It would be interesting (though not necessarily representative of the entire Chinese population) to hear Chinese people weigh in on this.
BTW, from a brief glance at your comment history, most appear to have a strong anti-Chinese sentiment. I think that if you want to argue that the report is largely correct, it will be more interesting if you elaborate on that instead of talking about whatever I said in the grandparent comment.
_yosefk's thoughtful, reflective comment based on personal experience is the kind we welcome here.
I.e. A western person claiming Russia or China to be racist and sexist (based on nothing else than that "everyone knows that") shows that this western is themself a racist because they hold prejudice views against hundreds of millions, or billions, of people of a certain ethnic background.
I don't think that the report is saying "China is racist and we aren't." It's saying that the difference between the US and China is that the US struggles with its racism whereas China doesn't. Or, at the very least, that this is a defensible enough narrative that it could form the basis for US messaging on the issue of racism in international diplomacy.
> It is not obvious to me that the American approach of racial quotas in high education...
I think you may've missed the author's main point wrt Affirmative Action.
The only reason that Affirmative Action is even discussed in this report is because this is one of China's lines of offense. The party will point to affirmative action and immigration quotas on Chinese as examples that prove the US is a racist society.
But the author's thesis is that the party's actual interest is in turning Chinese citizens against the US, not in proving their moral superiority to the US, and especially not in beating out the US on the racial equality front (witness: fucking eugenics...).
In other words, they have no qualms with racism -- only with racism against Han Chinese. And their focus on affirmative action (as opposed to Jim Crow or the highly racialized impacts of the WoD) betray this fact.
There are still people alive who fucking lived through Jim Crow.
The implementation of the War on Drugs is multi-decade all-but-overtly racist monstrosity.
So the US is far from guiltless, especially today. But Affirmative Action is somewhere near the mid-bottom, not the top, of a long list of very serious problems deeply rooted in racism. Focusing on it to the exclusion of these other issues -- while at the same time embracing fucking eugenics -- belies a disinterest in actual anti-racism.
That is the author's point.
> It doesn't seem different from Israel's affirmative action where Arabs get preferential treatment at the expense of Jews, either.
On a similar note... Yes, clearly the exemplar of racism in Israeli politicsis preferential treatment afforded to Arabs at the expense of jews in college admissions processes! /s
I get that you're just discussing affirmative action. But if China wanted to truly critique western racism via Israel, affirmative action for Arabs would be a truly mind-boggling place from which to mount that critique.
Unless they didn't actually give a shit about racism and just wanted to demonize the US on the basis of a policy that happens to harm Han Chinese, that is...
> Perhaps it seems reasonable to some to blame Chinese for not having racial quotas which supposedly "address" racism
Again, the Affirmative Action stuff is really about how China frames its critique of the US to appeal to contemporary Han Chinese. Not an actual discussion of the prevelance of racism in either society.
By contrast, it seems entirely reasonable for the author to point out stuff like ongoing 50's style racially-driven eugenics programs that were started in the mid-90's as evidence of ongoing racism in Chinese policy-making.
> Nor is it obvious to me whether the average Westerner of any particular group is more or less racist than a citizen of Russia, including both ethnic Russians and those who are not.
Indeed. Which is why the author identifies legal protections and cultural norms, and devotes an entire section to rejecting any hypotheses about differences in underlying psychology.
Reminded me of the reaction to Peter Liang's indictment. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Akai_Gurley#Chines... :
More than 3,000 Chinese-Americans showed up at
New York City Hall in March 2015 to support Liang.
Thousands walked across the Brooklyn Bridge to
Manhattan's Chinatown in April, feeling that Liang
was being used as a scapegoat, and demanded the
charges to be dropped, as other, white police officers
were previously not charged.
And earlier today I read the following excerpt from the press conference of Sunayana Dumala, the widow of Srinivas Kuchibhotla, the Indian man shot dead at Kansas. "I was told that that guy very proudly went to another bar
and told that he shot two Muslim guys. How did he decide
that by the color of a person? Does the color of the person
state that he is a Muslim, a Hindu or a Christian? No. So
how did that guy decide that?"
Apparently, the grievance seems to be that Srinivas Kuchibhotla is not Muslim, but was mistook to be one unfairly based on his complexion.> Affirmative Action is somewhere near the mid-bottom, not the top, of a long list of very serious problems deeply rooted in racism.
To you the fact that there are still black people who lived through Jim Crow matters more than the fact that there are Asians today who are turned down by high education institutions because of their race. Why can't a Chinese person tell you that you have no qualms with racism - only with racism against black people?
It seems to be a common viewpoint in the West that the response to racism is a hierarchy of grievances, and that for example a white person who supports preferential treatment of black people at the expense of Asians is not a racist, either because "racism" is defined to mean "disagreeing with the hierarchy of grievances", or simply because it's only "racism" when you're trying to get preferential treatment for your own race, but it's not "racism" if it's for another race. This is not however the only possible definition of racism, nor the original definition, nor the definition used in the report.
BTW I'm not sure whether a 100% color blind policy is always the best thing or not, and perhaps it depends on context. I'm just saying that I think it's a much thornier subject than people with (many different) strong positions seem to believe.
Yes. Absolutely.
The structural effects of 200 years of overtly racialized legal frameworks did not magically disappear with Brown v. Board. To claim that Jim Crow doesn't reverberate today in very concrete ways for millions of minorities in the US is ignorant beyond reason. And I even mentioned one concrete way that they reverberate today that is unimaginably worse than Affirmative Action (WoD).
> Why can't a Chinese person tell you that you have no qualms with racism - only with racism against black people?
Well first they'd have to determine if I support Affirmative Action...
> ...hierarchy of grievances... This is not however the only possible definition of racism, nor the original definition, nor the definition used in the report.
This discussion is about what the Chinese government chooses to emphasize. So context and degree both matter, because if China were truly critiquing racism then they'd choose the strongest argument available.
What really stuck out to me was this line that explains how racism benefits the Chinese government: "First, the Han Chinese possess a strong in group identity with a polarized and tightly defined out group. This allows the Chinese government to expect sacrifice and as well as support from the considerable majority of the Chinese people."
Perhaps a lot of these attitudes come from how in many Chinese people's eyes, their golden years were when they had very little outside influence and were able to invent some of the most useful inventions in human history (compass, paper, gunpowder). From the time that they have mixed with the West, they have had some very negative experiences, (as the report brings up, the Opium wars, burning of the palace). Perhaps their attitudes will change slowly now. In my experiences, racism is something that is slowly taught/instilled, and so I don't expect any easy reversal.
The ironic thing is that the exact opposite situation happened as recently as in the last 50 years. China closed itself again to have "little outside influences" and started the Cultural Revolution, which destroyed millions of lives, irreparably damaged Chinese society, and set the country back in cognitive and cultural development for several centuries. And it was foreign investment that lifted China out of severe chaos and poverty after Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up.
(Or maybe I've missed it, I've only read the summary and a few paragraphs that contained the term "white")
try starting a real business and see how it goes.
I'm probably biased since I'm Chinese. I agree with most part of this report. The author did a lot of good homework. But I think his thoughts to work out those strategies need some update to better fit in the world today and tomorrow. There are similar parts and there are different parts.
> Fourth, the message of the United States should be: We are better than the Chinese for Africa. We will assist you with economic aid to offset what you receive from China. In sum, culturally, socially, and politically, the United States is better, citizens are equal, racial equality, and civil rights are recognized.
Meanwhile, China is building railroads from China to Europe.[1]
200+ pages, no clear summary, unclear what it is it? Other than appearantly it is confidential who has written it, seemingly academic and it is about Chinese and/or China being racists.
Where is this document from? And why was it written?
"Racist" is probably the most damning word that one can use in politics (here international politics) and can be used justify a great deal of wrong doing.
To play advocate for keeping it unflagged: - domain of gwern.net is a respected source here; even his zanier points get the benefit of the doubt - China's future is hugely significant for the future of tech. - The document is not in any way a fluff piece, a "submarine", or pure anecdote. - ism's are discussed almost daily here in a domestic context.
http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/Reading_Room/Other/
Most of these are anthropology reports commissioned by the DoD. A lot of them are super interesting. Examples:
2st Century Cultures of War http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/Reading_Room/Other/Litigation%20...
Axis of Troubles: Male Youth and Factional Politics http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/Reading_Room/Other/Litigation%20...
The Future of Europe http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/Reading_Room/Other/Litigation%20...
The Future of Africa and the Future of China in Africa http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/Reading_Room/Other/Litigation%20...
That still doubles the number of people in your population with a 130+ IQ. Assuming baseline 100 mean and 15 std dev.
As for why China isn't farther ahead - IQ isn't everything. They modernized pretty late in the game, and operated under a profoundly stupid economic system for a good part of the 20th century. I believe that their current government is pretty corrupt, but I'm far from an expert.
In Chinese history and contemporary culture, the Chinese are seen to be unique and superior to the rest of the world. Other peoples and groups are seen to be inferior, with a sliding scale of inferiority.
The Chinese commonly believe that they are cleverer than others, and so may shape events in an oblique manner or through shi [势], the strategic manipulation of events. This conceit among the Chinese that they can manipulate others is supremely dangerous for Asian stability.
An overconfident China will continue to make the mistakes it is presently in the South China or East China Sea disputes. That is, making threats, issuing demands, heavy-handed shows of force, are generated by China’s overconfidence.
Analysts do have insight into how China will behave in the future based on its behavior in the past, when it was the hegemon of Asia, the known world as far as China was concerned. China sees itself as the center of the universe, all others are inferior, with varying degrees of inferiority. That is not an attractive model of winning allies and influence.
In contrast, China portrays itself as an apolitical rising superpower that does business in your country, pays a fair price for your commodities, and builds your infrastructure with no string attached.
There often is considerable resentment toward the Chinese due to their ruthless business practices, which undercut and destroy African businesses.
There is a major difference between the two countries: China sees itself as a single "people", in the sense that there is a clear dominating national identity linked to a certain culture and ethnicity, similar to other old world countries in the past century (some of which are still like that).
The US in this sense is closer to other "new world" countries, with a national identity not clearly tied to an ethnicity. Sure, there are groups who try to make the US a more homogeneous country (and not by intermixing to oblivion), but the US identity is largely multi-cultural and multi-ethnic.
So the Chinese who move to the US eventually become Americans, but Americans who move to China will never become Chinese. For China there's no cultural assimilation, no integration, no coexistence. There's not even "separate but equal", because there's no "equal".
But you still have American exceptionalism, the desire to spread western values like democracy, individual freedom and capitalism, being the world police, interference with other countries and so.
I mean it is somewhat understandable, if you believe in something, then you have to almost by definition assume that it is true and better than the alternatives. On the other hand you can also be more restrained r modest, you can believe in something but still avoid trying to force it onto everyone else.
Not sure if USA can exploit negative perceptions of China, given our history and the histories of other white-dominated nations (e.g. GB and France) in Africa and Latin America.
For all we know, the Third World might not mind at all seeing the West taken down a peg, especially if they see no change in their status. But even if things go worse for the TW because of China, what can they do about it?
Update: I see you've reworded your post and removed the quotation marks, I appreciate it.
While the Chinese might have a sense of exceptionalism, Americans also do, as well as many other countries. The Chinese have objectively received many humiliations historically and it is understandable if they do not feel good about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation