Federal agents make domestic flight passengers show ID to disembark plane
washingtonpost.com
washingtonpost.com
I can only imagine what would happen if they just started stopping everyone on the freeway asking for ID...
And so it begins.
But, here's the ridiculous part, they define "near a border" as anywhere in the US that is 100 miles from a border or the ocean.
So, virtually all of California is in the "constitution free zone" -- as are a full 2/3rds of the US population.
https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone
It's my quick & dirty edit of their image.
Don't the police set up roadblocks which stop everybody if they're trying to apprehend a fugitive and they think said fugitive is driving in a particular direction?
Also, those roadblocks are extremely temporary by nature, in terms of hours. Some of the border patrol checkpoints are basically permanent (a big sticking point in terms of the law).
Now let's expand this instead of fugitive, you're looking for illegal immigrants on a list of people. Does that mean you can stop everyone, and scan their ID to try to find these people? Not to mention search the vehicle?
In terms of the constitution, my right to free travel and the 4th amendment, I would hope that such a thing wouldn't happen, but it seems like that is what they are trying.
For airports, things are a bit different, and you waive certain rights because of public safety and the risk of terrorism. But I can see something like that being moved down to travel by road as well.
For a DUI roadblock yeah they'll ask you for ID, but not all the people in the car. Also, for secondary at these border patrol checkpoints, I think it's pretty shaky legal ground, although they will try.
No idea what would have happened if I had refused, but I doubt it would have been "Ok, you're free to go."
In this case, did they have a description or simply "there's someone on the plane violating immigration law"?
It began years ago.
Those EZ-Pass transponders don't just transpond at toll plazas, and for those without EZ-Pass, license plate readers, and cell towers complement the aggregate data collected.
http://immigrationroad.com/blog/do-i-have-to-carry-my-green-...
https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification
By checking their ID?
Don't you think it's a little hypocritical of you? You seem just fine with green card holders being subjected to something you yourself would not stand for. My spouse has a green card. I find the requirement rather onerous given the level of scrutiny required to get one.
Edit: Oh yes. Let the down votes begin. How many DHS officials looked through your wedding photos? ID requirements are fine for "those" people.
My point was that if you're not carrying any form of identification, there's no way for anyone to prove you're not a US citizen. And that that's a good thing, because the perspective of American law is that you need positive proof that someone is an illegal immigrant to arrest them, rather than just a lack of proof of them being a US citizen. Because—crucially—it's perfectly customary for US citizens to walk around without such proof, and so the law can't work any other way.
This creates a loophole for those who lose, forget, or never had green cards: if you just avoid carrying any ID, you can, when questioned, say you're a US citizen who left their ID at home. It's then up to the other party to prove otherwise; until they do, they can't detain you, because you're presumably a US citizen without their ID and there is no crime in that.
This didn't used to be a feasible thing to do, because you are required to carry some form of ID if you want to operate a motor vehicle, and the US is a big sprawl that requires most people to be operating motor vehicles at least some of the time. But as the US gradually builds up metropolitan areas with public transit systems, this becomes less of a concern; for many Americans, there's nothing they do on an average day that requires an ID, and they'd be fine without it.
(Also, re: "something you yourself would not stand for"—I'm not an American myself. I just like contrived discussions of law.)
But it's not illegal for a US citizen to be carrying no form of identification
[EDIT: Note what the regulation actually says:
"If your identity is confirmed, you will be allowed to enter the screening checkpoint." (That does NOT, in itself, include boarding a plane.) Continuing: "You may be subject to additional screening. You will not be allowed to fly if your identity cannot be confirmed, you chose to not provide proper identification or you decline to cooperate with the identity verification process."
So, had there been passengers for which a knowing exception had been made, the investigators would have known that going in. So, it's wrong to say that "it's illegal" to be on a commercial flight in that case, but for the purpose of this specific search, any such granted variances would have had to be on record, and known to the investigators.
https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification
(they treat it as an exception, but it is right there on their website)
Surely the thoroughness physical screening should be orthogonal to identity? Otherwise it suggests that someone who does have ID to fly receives less scrutiny, which is a security vulnerability.
To invert: everyone boarding an aircraft should be physically screened to the same extent.
I wouldn't want this to be a routine fishing expedition, but if there's someone specific they're looking for and they have a reason to think the person in question is on the plane, I really don't see any problem.
More importantly, they should plenty of less-invasive procedures. The airline should have a passenger manifest of everyone who actually flew, for one thing.
That might be another way to try and have a legal push back, as most people, probably myself too, might not feel up to trying to stand their ground on their rights impromptu with no time to become aware of whatever specific rights will challenged ahead of time.
I wonder what would have happened if someone refused.
I was once stopped and asked for my ID (and other questions) because someone had committed a robbery in the area.
People are routinely stopped at checkpoints when crossing state lines, when police are searching for someone, and at "dragnets" for DUI and immigration.
And yet, suddenly, the left-wing media cares?
Could that have anything to do with their candidate (Hillary) having lost the election?
They're going to exploit anything they can to make Trump look bad, just as the right-wing did when Obama was in office.
That doesn't change the fact that it's unconstitutional to require ID.
"Dragnets" are not a good thing. There's a reason people often use them as a synonym for invasive and authoritarian tactics.
I (and many people on both sides) have been opposed to dragnets (including DUI and immigration dragnets) for a long time.
DAE remember when right wingers were mocked for those videos in which they simply responded "Am I being detained?"
"someone fitting your description"
"someone reported a suspicious person"
all lies and garbage. they aren't searching for someone specific, and if they were they wouldn't need to ask you for your ID because they'd already know who they were looking for.
else they'd already be detaining you.
For the thrill of calmly and politely asking who I was and what I was doing in the area?
"as they searched for an undocumented immigrant who had received a deportation order to leave the United States."
"The search was conducted at the request of Immigration and Customs Enforcement"
Seems completely reasonable.
Did they tell CBP that the person was on the flight? Did they tell CBP that the person may have been on the flight? Didn't they know for sure?
Don't we have computers now?
What happens if I don't have my citizenship papers with me? Is ICE going to take my word that I'm not the person they're looking for and I'm actually a citizen?
Why should I, a natural-born US citizen, be obligated to carry my citizenship papers around with me in any of those situations just in case ICE decides to show up? I have certain rights as a US citizen, and one of those is that I expect to be able to travel domestically without carrying my papers and without ICE detaining me.
Also, providing ID is pretty normal. Especially on flights. Even domestic ones. Or so I thought. Then again I live in communist Canada.
"...In the case of Delta Flight 1583, we don’t know what would have happened if a passenger declined to answer questions, declined to show ID, or tried to walk past the CBP officers and leave the plane. Some of the passengers might perfectly legally have passed through TSA checkpoints and boarded the flight without having or showing any ID, as people do every day.
It’s unclear whether a court would find that, in the circumstances depicted in this photo, a reasonable person would have felt free to leave without answering questions or showing ID documents.
The Supreme Court has also ruled that law enforcement officers questioning and searching passengers on a common carrier are not required to tell you whether you have to comply with their “requests”, or to tell you whether you are free to leave.
The only way to find out whether you are required to answer questions is to stand mute. The only way to find out if you are required to produce or hand over documents is to keep them out of sight and not to hand over or open your bags or put your hands in your pockets. The only way to find out if you are free to leave is to walk away. The only way to find out whether government agents will allow you to exercise your rights is to exercise your rights. Only then are you likely to be found to have standing to challenge any infringement of your rights.
So far as we can tell, all the passengers on Delta Flight 1583 produced and handed over documents that the CBP officers found acceptable, and were then allowed to leave. So we will probably never know whether the courts would have upheld the legality of the CBP officers’ actions."
More (including links to statute and regulations purporting to authorize CBP boarding of domestic flights):
https://papersplease.org/wp/2017/02/24/border-search-and-id-...