Users get message about sexual harassment scandal when trying to delete Uber
mashable.com
mashable.com
Fowler is not at Uber. Nobody at Uber is taking responsibility.
No statement from Uber has been explicit that the behaviors are upsetting or that losing an engineer because of company culture as manifested in the workplace was upsetting. The statements have all been about how reading the post made people unhappy (perhaps because the behavior was made public). The loss of company value due to the fallout probably makes people unhappy too. Heck, any bad press will make people unhappy.
Uber's response narrative reminds me of a "What's really important here is how hitting you makes me feel bad about myself" bully.
The response? "Thank you for writing in to Uber Support...for any information related to the U.S. immigration ban, please see our Newsroom post..."
Thanks bot. I request again. "I can’t speak to your concerns or questions regarding this issue."
Swallow my pride and recant it is...
I no longer believe in the hope that sexism against women (or queer folks) will disappear..at least not in my lifetime.
Imagine..all the bandwidth wasted on noise like this..
"I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it." - The Doctor, The Unearthly Child.
In other fields women are more powerful (than in engineering).
I was personally harassed twice by female doctors. Never reported it because honestly, what's the point?
Also, plenty of sex-stereotyping that rises to the level of an "ism" is generally positive for men ("big strong man help me move this <heavy object>" or "big virile man you have a beautiful wife"--a doubly sexist trope--and so on).
So while I agree we shouldn't reserve concern only for women, we must also not present the issue as though it is somehow equivalent or equally applied.
The fact is that sexism against women is far and away the majority case. We shouldn't choose to address one concern over the other if they were equivalent, but in this case focusing efforts on combating sexism against women will also work to reduce sexism against men naturally. So it's a win-win to focus on and prioritize combating sexism against women.
Most men who are victims of sexual harassment, domestic violence, and other forms of sexism don't speak out.
[1] http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2016/09/taxi-driver-ch...
[2] http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2017/02/judges-uphold-...
Taxis in most cities here are actually okay on the whole.
It can be that the same drivers will work for Uber (black level) and for taxi companies. The taxi companies that I've encountered in the NL don't have anything comparable to an app where you can hail and pay, so for that reason alone Uber still may provide a better service even though the drivers may be the same.
Ironically, the Uber fiasco has now made me substantially more empathic to the single issue voters (Evangelicals, Right to Lifers, NRA Members, etc...) who voted for Trump regardless of his perceived faults.
It worked ok in a very touristic part of Thailand (Patong & Phuket City), with a lot of scammers (asking 700 THB for a ride that should be around 300).
Using an app that removes the friction of having to communicate with people whose language you do not speak is certainly nice, but it's not a fundamental need. It's a choice and like all choices you trade one thing for another: convenience vs. supporting a stance that you can align morally with.
Reducing an argument to "needs" or "rights" is circular. Even across well-accepted cultures and moral systems, the lines between "needs" and non-"needs" is diverse (e.g. duty to god(s), duty to family honour, securing one's life, securing one's happiness through artistic expression, et cetera).
If that's really what your whole post is about, why take the take to argue definitions? What does fundamental mean to you exactly?
Also learning how to say please and thank you in the local language never hurt anyone.
He could immediately tell I wasn't fully Polish and launched into a bigoted tirade about Americans and refused to drop me off unless I paid him a large tip, because as an "American pretending to be Polish", "I can afford it".
He was not a licensed taxi driver, of course. But sometimes keeping your mouth shut and staying in your comfort bubble is exactly what you want. Thinking that learning please and thank you never hurt anyone is itself something you can only do from inside of a bubble.
So it wasn't speaking Polish or being American that hurt you - it was getting in a strangers car instead of an actual taxi.
This may be of use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_danger
This is one of Uber's value propositions.
Imagine srriving at an airport and seeing they have signs up advising tourists how to determine the validity of a taxi. All well and good, until you find out the signs were fake and erected illegally by one taxi company to steer people away from their competitor.
Or head over to somewhere like Tunisia for a while. The line between legitimate and illegitimate is so blurred as to be nonexistent.
Even in my home town of Canberra we have a tightly regulated but loosely policed taxi industry, and there is no guarantee that the person driving the taxi is the same as the person whose licence is displayed on the dash.
Sorry to disappoint you, I've gotten a lot of bad taxis as well. My Polish taxi driver experience was stellar though.
But yeah, pay no attention when you ask for an Uber and you might get someone purporting to be an Uber driver or something else.
> jonathankoren : What was his point?
It's an insinuation that the patriarchy doesn't exist, or is toothless based on the fact that one woman's story sparked a protest against Uber.
Which is of course a stupid point. One swallow doesn't make a summer, one exception doesn't disprove a rule and of course any complex system can have exceptions, contra tendencies and still have a dominant character.
No one said that patriarchy works like a totalitarian state, crushing anything and anyone which doesn't adhere to a strict set of rules.
Seriously dude. What are you trying to say?
Let's not pretend that these allegations came like a bolt from the blue. They've been floating around Uber for years now. The only thing different here is that someone publically put their name on it.
But hey, your narrative is that I'm out of touch with women because I'm not a woman so how could I possibly know, and I wouldn't want to ruin that little victory for you.
I find it doubly absurd to think that your reports would talk to you about these things. First you're in a position of power over them, and we're dealing with a topic that goes hand in glove with abuses of power. Second on a personal note, you appear to be completely dismissive that any such claims could possibly have merit to them. Finally, look at your choice of name. I commend you for not going with "pussypuncher".
Tangentially: Stalking an ex is a perfect example of sexual harassment, albeit not necessarily toward another member in that organization.
You've also been using HN primarily for political and ideological battle. That's another abuse of this site, and we ban accounts that do that as well. HN can't both gratify intellectual curiosity and be a battlefield, so please use the site as intended.
I will say this, HN's very recent position of trying to remain apolitical when the topic of social and political issues regarding tech companies is completely untenable, and I think the recent discussions about Uber has shown that. You can't bring up the very relevant topics of either diversity or sexual harassment in Silicon Valley, without people coming out of the woodwork and quite loudly declaring that either the accusations are false, or they're not that bad. These positions can not go unchallenged, as they have been shown to be false many times before and with just as many actors, and perpetuate the very problem being highlighted.
So what are we going to do about it? Ignore it? I'm not because I too much about a liberal civil society. Ignoring the ideas doesn't just perpetuate them, but gives them strength and credibility, when they quite frankly they were discredited when I was young.
Since HN has made it a policy to stick its collective head in sand regarding these issues, I think the only option HN is willing to take is clear. Ban me, because I'm not going to stop, because I take these topics very seriously. I don't say that out of some sort of defiance, I say that because I know myself. It will happen again, and again, and again. Either you're going to have to remove all discussions from the front page as soon as these topics come up, or you're going to have to ban accounts including mine to ensure an off topic prosaic comments like "I like the old logo better."
Yes, commenters here show up with all sorts of opinions and competing (often bad) ideas. HN is divided because society is divided. Presumably the same divisions would show up in any large-enough sample. The question is what do we do given these divisions, since we can't eliminate them.
This is exactly the behaviour you'd expect under a really oppressive system: given a low-risk way to protest the oppression, people take it. Women and those sympathetic to the cause of equality can easily delete their accounts and take alternatives, so they do.
Consider the contra: if this wasn't an oppressive system, if there weren't real causes for complaint, nobody would care-- and so nobody would delete their accounts over the story.
And that's also what makes the protest so appealing. The protestors _don't have to justify themselves_ to you; they don't have to meet your arbitrary bar of "yes, this is now real enough for me to consider it as sexism, you are permitted to complain".
They can just decide who they believe, and act accordingly. And have.
Here is now HR takes part in "the conspiracy": they take no action against a man who is in a senior position because they do not want to lose their jobs.
Here is how "all these employees" take part in "the conspiracy": they do not speak up because the issue is not affecting them personally, they don't want to rock the boat, and maybe they feel that the woman in question is just a pain in the arse because she always talks back and challenges assumptions, so why would anyone stand up for her?
Sexism is not a conspiracy, it's a learned behaviour. You can't eliminate sexism by breaking the conspiracy, you have to find ways to adjust institutionalised behaviour.
Consider the classic story about the monkeys and the electrified bananas: monkeys in captivity were shown bananas. If any monkey went to pick up the banana, the entire cage would be electified, shocking all the monkeys. Eventually the monkeys would best up any monkey trying to pick up the bananas.
Then the researchers started replacing the population, and stopped electrocuting the monkeys. The society still best up monkeys trying to get the banana. Long after there were non of the original monkeys in the group, and none of the monkeys had been electrocuted, they still beat up any monkey trying to pick up the banana.
So too, in any institution the new people learn ways and means from the incumbents. They learn that certain people are beyond reproach, long after any remaining incumbents can remember why. They learn that certain issues are smply not discussed, and do not question why.
How do you get that institutionalised behaviour back to normal?
"This is exactly the behaviour you'd expect under a really oppressive system: given a low-risk way to protest the oppression, people take it." Welcome to 2017, where crying wolf has no negative impact on them if proved untrue.
"Women and those sympathetic to the cause" Because by default, all women are automatically part of the cause.
"Consider the contra: if this wasn't an oppressive system, if there weren't real causes for complaint, nobody would care-- and so nobody would delete their accounts over the story." Of course, there's never been a case where a person has been really offended, got loads of people on side only to turn out to be false?
Regardless of her respect in SV, we can only look at the facts. Why is she the only person to leave Uber over this? Why have there not been previous cases of this? What evidence is there that the events unfolded as she suggested? All these things and more should be considered.
That doesn't negate from the fact that there is still too little evidence to call.
For somebody who collected so much evidence you would hope you would be able to see it?
Why did she not seek help outside of the company if the company was acting illegally?
Other witness accounts? Lots of women are meantbto have left over this, where are their accounts?
This smells like underlying bias to me, I'm afraid. Crying wolf in many of these areas has frequent negative impact -- hell, speaking out with good cause has negative impact. Who wants to volunteer to be at the centre of the next ethics in game journalism storm?
But this specific action -- choosing to no longer use the services of a company -- does have few repercussions, which does make it a good way to protest.
> Because by default, all women are automatically part of the cause
This could have been worded more felicitously, sure. Substitute "those negatively affect by the oppression and those sympathetic to them" and the point stands.
> Regardless of her respect in SV, we can only look at the facts.
As others have said, it seems you didn't look at the facts here. But regardless, the original point is not about the author, it's rejecting the idea that people are only able to delete their Uber accounts to protest the patriarchy because the very patriarchy they're protesting doesn't exist.
It said in a mocking sense, but given the benefit of a doubt - it's difficult to read intention.
> Who wants to volunteer to be at the centre of the next ethics in game journalism storm?
Lot's of people. Not everybody of course. There's lot of sociopaths/psychopaths that exist undiagnosed amongst us. I don't think that has any value in the argument as we really don't know this person.
> But this specific action -- choosing to no longer use the services of a company -- does have few repercussions, which does make it a good way to protest.
Ha! PR is one of the most important aspects to a company. Why do you think Google is so successful? Perception often outweighs truth.
> This could have been worded more felicitously, sure. Substitute "those negatively affect by the oppression and those sympathetic to them" and the point stands.
It was just a throwaway point about your default stance. We all have unconscious bias, I'm not holding it against you. My point was that we should all be aware of it.
> As others have said, it seems you didn't look at the facts here.
I've now read a lot of articles regarding this topic (it's interesting isn't it?).
> the original point is not about the author, it's rejecting the idea that people are only able to delete their Uber accounts to protest the patriarchy because the very patriarchy they're protesting doesn't exist.
> This is exactly the behaviour you'd expect under a really oppressive system: given a low-risk way to protest the oppression, people take it. Women and those sympathetic to the cause of equality can easily delete their accounts and take alternatives, so they do.
But this isn't by definition evidence of that structure existing. Simply agreeing or disagreeing with a point of view can lead to the same outcome. And with "a really oppressive system", I would expect to see a much more solid foundation to the accusations.
Signs this may be false:
- No evidence of communications
- No witnesses to the events have come forward
- No names of the people involved
- No pursuit for legal rights
- Disabled comments on blog
- Uber directly addressing the blog (if they knew they were in the wrong, they would want this to go away)
- HR woman didn't sympathize with her accusations
Signs this may be true:
- Uber had an internal meeting regarding the accusations
- Uber are conducting an internal investigation
- Uber's history of being a tough working environment
It's simply not conclusive yet.
The Fowler incident is the last straw for many people. What is happening right now is decidedly not simply the result of "a single blog post".
There are other ways to get a taxi ride.
This kind of trolling and the flamewar you started are not acceptable on HN, and we've warned you about it before. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll use the site as intended in the future.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13712596 and marked it off-topic.
"Eric Holder", "President Obama"...
What's next Uber? Deleting Uber kills kittens?