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Comment by bsaul | Hacker News Reader

Clearly there's a problem in that company, but maybe some woman working in the US could answer to me : why isn't just answering to the first mail " sorry, not interested" then keep working there not an option ?

to me, the term "harassment" means repetitive, morally painful actions from a boss to his employee. Obviously the guy has a huge problem with his sex life, but why report to HR instantly , instead of trying to see if the problem is that big and can't be solved by a person to person conversation, like grown up, first ?

EDIT : i'm not trying to be a jerk, and justify the behavior of that guy. I'd just like some woman working in tech in the US to explain to me what's wrong in my scenario.

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Under standard American business ethics, and most state laws if I'm not mistaken, such a request from a person with control over your job is an abuse of power and automatically over the harassment line. (This is probably true everywhere in the world but perhaps not recognized as such.) Any American manager would know this and would have no excuse. You don't wave a gun around at work because you're having "a bad day" and you don't write stuff like this. At a company with any ethical backbone, he'd have been pushed out the door so fast they might have forgotten to open it first.

> why isn't just answering to the first mail " sorry, not interested" then keep working there not an option ?

It is an option. In fact, it sounds like that is nearly what Ms. Fowler did -- she reported the interaction to HR (who informed her supervisor but took no action) and then she kept working there.

In my opinion, if the person who has been propositioned by their boss WISHES to just say "No" and let it pass, then they are welcome to do that. Some people are comfortable handling that sort of thing. But I would NEVER want to suggest that a person propositioned by their boss OUGHT to simply say "No" and let it pass. Very few people would be comfortable doing that and everyone should be entitled (are entitled, by law) to be free of requests for sex by the person with the power to promote, demote, or fire them.

That scenario allows someone to get away with making every female employee's first day horribly uncomfortable. The sender has the power to fire the recipient at will without an explanation, which means saying "sorry, not interested" could get you summarily fired with no recourse.

Only a sociopath would actually fire you for turning down a proposition, but this is your first interaction with the guy, so you have to consider the possibility.

I'm not a woman, but seriously : WTF? Your boss has to ask you for sex TWICE before that's a problem?

Reporting it to HR was the right thing to do. This behavior can become a liability for the company, HR should protect the company from employees like this, so it was in the best interest of the company to report this.

Would you be okay with it if you started a new job and your boss instantly propositioned you?

Of course not, but i'll just tell her / him i'm not interested, and see if the person's keep insisting and make my life at work miserable, or if he's just a desperate person having a very bad day...

There are many reason why someone would be a pain to work with honestly. I could imagine someone insisting on people going to drink after work being a pita for a muslim for example, or a guy talking all the time about politics and having different views than myself, etc, etc. But it seems like sex is handled extremely differently than the rest, and i'd like to understand if, in practice, there are reason for that (other than the subject itself being extremely sensitive in the US compared to some european countries, for example).

That's because your boss propositioning you for sex _is_ different than your boss talking to you about politics.

It says something about the culture of the company that a manager feels unfettered to ask his direct reports for sex so boldly, i.e. without fear of consequence. I'm shocked you do not see this.

You are extending a lot of good will towards the "ask my female employees for sex on the first day" boss in this situation. "a desperate person having a very bad day"? I encourage you to reflect on your investment in extending to this person such an excuse. Why should that person not endure whatever scrutiny would follow from an HR inquiry into that behavior? Why is your instinct to shield that person, by suggesting that it might be the author's responsibility to brush it off?

"sex is handled extremely differently than the rest ... [is there] reason for that[?]" I mean US internet culture is the place where this baleful notion of the "friend zone" exists: men who complain bitterly that being nice to women does not secure for them a sexual relationship. Denigration or retaliation following sexual rejection is a well-documented practice. From what history do you think sexual harassment laws spring? Women fought for them because they survived regular abuse, manipulation and retaliation from men (especially superiors). Have you read any of this history? for example: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2011/1114/The-evolution...

Consider, would you not feel pressure, from your new boss at your new company, that maybe your turning them down might have negative repercussions for your career? Would it not give you great anxiety?

There's a power relationship between reports. Most companies have explicit guidelines that prohibit romantic relationships along the management chain.

Because challenging someone to "justify" why they feel sexually harassed is inappropriate?

Yes, that's my feeling too. It's inappropriate to even wonder if the person complaining was in fact harassed.

And that leads to a country where every manager is absolutely terrified to be accused because they know they'll be automatically guilty.

In the OP case, the manager clearly behaved completely foolishly, but i have actually met people in some offices that were into open relationships, and talked extremely freely about sex, just like any other subject ( though he did have some weird behaviors, but it didn't prevent people at the office from working with him). I wonder if that Uber guy wasn't like that.

> i have actually met people in some offices that were into open relationships, and talked extremely freely about sex, just like any other subject

1. He was propositioning her; not just "initiating a topic".

2. That person was her manager, which changes the picture altogether (see this comment by 'calcsam: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13682117)

The manager must be an amazing 100x manager. I cannot imagine why his fellow managers and superiors would keep him around.

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