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Comment by rb666 | Hacker News Reader

Making Trump's wall even more pointless!

I mean yeah, we really should just leave the border wide open since after all, if you can't stop border shenanigans 100% you shouldn't bother at all. Might as well remove all our border patrol agents as well since a non-zero number of people still get through despite their presence.

While at it, might as well remove the door from our homes. It doesn't stop a determined burglar picking the door lock or breaking it open anyways so why bother?

Or, just keep it being the border as it was before?

So leave the fence as it is?

Yes.

But shouldn't we be tearing down the wall instead? And building bridges to make it easier for people to travel?

There already is a tall wall in some parts. According to a border patrol agent the Mexicans just showed up with long ladders. Shortly border patrol had collected so many ladders that they had as giant pile at their station. They soon have up at even collecting the ladders.

I don't think giving up on securing the border is the right thing to do either. But doing something super expensive that was tired and didn't work doesn't seem like a good idea. Maybe we could instead try to innovate. Maybe small, autonomous drones that patrol the border might be a approach worth trying. I also heard that they are just lacking the resources to process people who were caught in a timely manner and they ended up staying for years. That sounds worthwhile addressing as well before we spent tons of money on a wall. Or we might even stop the war on drugs which would undermine the Mexican cartels, make Mexico saver and reduce push effects for illegal immigrants.

$21 Billion for a wall is a lot.

Penn & Teller did a show on Immigration. Tthey got a bunch of Mexicans to build a wall. And yes, after it was built, they asked the workers to try to get across it.

The wall slowed them down by about 2 minutes. Which isn't really worth it.

Any wall built along the border will likely be similar in efficacy. And even if the wall is perfect, tunnelling under it won't be a problem.

TBH, You'd probably be better off increasing detection along the border. Leave it open, but make sure you catch everyone $21 billion will buy a lot of equipment that can be hidden, and a lot of border patrols.

I think it would be interesting if the internet were around 50+ years ago so we could hear everyone respond to news of the Berlin Wall being constructed with "LOLOLOL ever heard of a ladder?"

Walls do work. Not 100% because nothing is, but they absolutely do. Ask Hungary how it's been working out for them: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_border_barrier

The Berlin Wall worked because it was backed by fear and guns. The Soviets had no problem arresting and torturing or outright shooting anyone who tried to cross. I think you understand what I'm trying to point out here.

How about Hungary's current wall?

The Berlin was was built in a densely populated area, was patrolled regularly, had frequent guard towers, and, was ~100 miles long.

Are you really claiming that's a good comparison to a wall 1000 miles long, through desert and unpopulated areas, which won't* be manned continuously along it's length?

As for the Hungarian border wall, yes, it has helped. But again, EU population density is a lot higher than the southern US desert. It's not just the wall that stops people, it's the frequent patrols, and repairs to the wall.

Given the inability of the US to prevent tunnels between the Mexico / US border, I'm skeptical that a 1000 mile wall will work.

> which won't* be manned continuously along it's length?

> It's not just the wall that stops people, it's the frequent patrols, and repairs to the wall.

Correct, the wall is but one part of a solution. As far as patrols go, sounds like a fantastic jobs program.

> As far as patrols go, sounds like a fantastic jobs program.

i.e. a way to throw money away doing nothing productive.

Either the people involved will be highly trained / paid well, and therefore bored. Or, they won't be paid well, and will be susceptible to bribes from people wanting to cross.

A good jobs programme results in something which creates more jobs and economic activity over time. This wall wall will hinder economic activity (though generally the kind that is less desirable).

Land mines, attack dogs, shoot-to-kill and a totalitarian regime make walls more effective. Not that these options are totally unrealistic at the moment. Calling up the national guard would seem a step this way.

$21 Billion for a wall is nothing for a country as large and successful as the USA. It's pretty much pocket change that could get lost under a sofa cushion and not be missed. Our federal budget for 2015 was $3.8 trillion. Spending half a percent on a wall is not a problem. $21 Billion is about 0.1% of our GDP.

Note that even Mexico has a GDP of $1.3 trillion (in US dollars), so they can in fact pay for the wall. Even for Mexico, the wall is kind of affordable.

Walls are cheaper than highways. Notice that we have numerous highways running across the USA.

Dealing with these people is costing us 3 to 6 times as much EVERY YEAR as your figure of $21 Billion. If the wall were flawless, we'd get a payback in just 2 to 4 months.

I agree on the detection though. In most areas, the proper physical barrier is probably a fence every half mile for a couple miles, for a total of 5 fences.

>...we really should just leave the border wide open...

It isn't, hasn't been, won't be, and everyone perfectly well knows that.

In 2016 the US spent about $0.75 on CBP for every $1.00 we spent on NASA. Illegal immigration across the border reached new long-term lows, and so did the number of immigrants living in the country illegally. There is no border crisis.

Falsely promoting a crisis is unpatriotic, it undermines the culture and institutions that we collectively refer to as "the country." It's a betrayal, a dereliction of duty.

Quite the opposite. He claims to want to secure the border. Anybody who has had their gentiles fondled by TSA might be suprised that you can get stuff over the border but not on a plane.

The point is that the border could be a lot stronger.

Is it really that surprising that it's harder to secure thousands of miles than it is to secure a few airport gates?

Once we see actual "security" (rather than a theater production) at an airport gate in the US we can more intelligently answer that question.

I wonder how the gentiles feel about being fondled.

Probably the same way my phone felt!

Trump's wall reminds me the Maginot Line

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maginot_Line

The Germans simply flew over it...

No, they went around it. The forest next to it was considered to be impassable by tanks (it wasn't).

Largely (wasn't impassible) because of the Belgians' reluctance to create and man a significant defensive barrier against German aggression.

They also went around. But the maginot line was designed without air warfare in mind, and the germans easily bombed the lines behind the maginot line.

Planes existed and bombed things prior to the Maginot Line being built. It was also protected against aerial attack, which is kind of intuitive as the French were familiar with just how much explosives could home from the air after ww1 (though generally by by heavy artillery).

The Germans went mostly through Low Countries, violating the neutrality of Netherlands and Belgium, not just Ardennes forest. The Maginot line did not extend to the Belgian border because when building it, the French did not want to offend Belgians.

Trump does not seem to hesitate offending anyone, so from that point his walls should be more effective...

> The Germans went mostly through Low Countries, violating the neutrality of Netherlands and Belgium, not just Ardennes forest.

Would be pretty interesting to see Mexicans reroute to come through canada. I say it in joking, but if you fly to canada and cross over into the US, whats the difference?

It would require more financial resources from each individual, reducing the number of people that could make it across. From a pure threat/security perspective it's a win.

Or simply fly directly into the US on an education or tourist visa[0].

0: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/02/03/homeland-sec...

It's a talking point to make you angry. The wall is really a fence which is really an idea. Ideas keep people distracted and that way no one cares that the CIA funnels weapons and money into many Central/South American countries and then funnels drugs out of those same regions; regardless of whether it's a D or an R in the <insert any branch of government here>.

Hm, there is already quite a lot of fencing in place. 930 kilometers of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_b...

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