Dutch House of Representatives passes dragnet surveillance bill | Hacker News Reader

Dutch House of Representatives passes dragnet surveillance bill

bof.nl

182 pointsskrebbel59 comments

For the Dutch people here considering what to vote in the March elections, I made an overview of statements of the parties on privacy and internet freedom: https://goo.gl/roiqVJ

Also https://www.privacystemwijzer.nl/ to figure out if your views about privacy align with the views of the parties. Stay informed people!

Vote Piratenpartij if you're serious about privacy/security. For other parties it's just a 'side issue'.

The pirate party is awfully specific, like the pvdd (party for animal welfare; partij voor de dieren). I would love to vote for the pirate party if they would just stick to IT, but they can't: if someone gets into parliament, they suddenly have to decide on everything.

I'm serious about privacy and IT stuff, but I am also serious about education and peace. Calling your party the animal party, 50+ party, pirate party, etc. just forces you to ignore anyone who doesn't identify as an animal lover, as 50+ or as a pirate (or internet freedom fighter).

Did you have a look at their party programme? Because their politics extend beyond just technology matters. I think their name does them a disservice; but they probably wanted to maintain ties to the more global Pirate Party movements.

The PvdD (Animal Party) has actually had a lot of successes on their main topic since they entered parliament. In the Dutch system, tiny parties can have a large impact if they make proposals that have broad support in society. And even if the support isn't there yet (which might be the case here – the sentiment is rather in favour of "security" at the moment), they will have a voice that is going to be heard.

Also, the PP actually has standpoints on all major issues. In many ways they're a more libertarian version of Green Left.

Did you even read the party programme of piratenpartij?

You cannot seriously scream "piratenpartij is nonsense because it is single issue" when the pirate party has 60 page party programme that touches upon all aspects of society [https://piratenpartij.nl/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/PPNL-Ver...] whilst the expected largest party has only a single sheet of paper that just says "Get rid of all Muslims in Europe + Close all borders" [https://www.pvv.nl/images/Conceptverkiezingsprogrammma.pdf]

I would be a lot less worried about piratenpartij getting a seat in parliament than PVV getting 50% if you're worried about single-issue parties.

> Did you even read the party programme of piratenpartij?

It's not because they have no (or a bad) programme, I said what I said because they are "the pirate party".

Regarding the PVV, the "party vor vreedom" (literally translated, for the non-Dutch people here), yeah they're literally George Orwell's 1984 doublespeak. A party for freedom that restricts our freedom every step of the way, and focuses on muslims the whole time. They should have been called the anti-foreigner party, or perhaps rename to Autochtonen Eerst (as a reference to America First). But anyway that was not the topic.

Don't just look at the name. The PvdD also has a lot of good policies in terms of privacy and other social issues.

But maybe it would be nice to be able to elect different parties in different areas of policy, like the water board.

> Don't just look at the name. The PvdD also has a lot of good policies in terms of privacy and other social issues.

Indeed, they do! That's why it's such a shame they're called PvdD because I don't have any particular affiliation with animals. I'm fine with them being treated well, but if that is so leading that they had to name their party like that, I am not sure it's a party I should vote for.

I think the name does a good job of presenting them as a party of compassion and recognising that we are also animals. Denying that part of our nature by pretending humans are especially rational is one leading cause of unworkable policies.

> and recognising that we are also animals.

Oh is that why they chose that name? Because I completely agree with that sentiment, but I thought the point of starting the party was to improve conditions for animals as opposed to only humans.

I don't know why they choose it, but I get the impression they are the party for all animals, including humans.

Pirate Parties around the world are more than just IT issues. They're civil liberties and social inclusion parties.

The Dutch Piratenpartij always made a very "Occupy-ish" disorganized and unprofessional impression on me, but maybe someone here as an inside view or a different perspective?

Many parties started like that. They're under very good leadership of Ancilla van der Leest now. She's knowledgeable, driven, and much better at communication/politics than the people before her.

I'm really just a bystander but it seems to me that she's already made the party significantly better organized since she started. Notably some people who preferred drama over results have resigned from board since she started. There hasn't been any drama since.

This is incorrect as you can see from f.e. the Privacy Barometer[1]. The PvdD (Party for the Animals, how unfortunate their name may be) has always been very pro-privacy & civilian rights and if you'd read their party statements you'd know it is not "just a side issue" for that party.

Of the parties that can be checked because they've had a seat in the government it is one of the best parties to vote on if privacy, surveillance etc. are important for you. It remains to be seen if the Pirate Party will do better if it ever ends up with seats in the government.

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[1] https://www.privacybarometer.nl/pagina/50/Actuele_stand_van_...

Thanks! I've forwarded these to all my friends, they're pretty good and I don't think many of them voted in previous years.

> privacy and internet freedom: goo.gl

Is a little ironic.

A little, you say?

I agree, so I reuploaded it on riseup:

blob:https://share.riseup.net/43c16173-b82e-4914-8608-4d74a331754...

Sorry for violating your copyright! Feel free to DMCA.

As you can see, it is Kopimi http://www.kopimi.com/ :)

Thanks for reminding me of Kopimi! I ignored the logo as I recognized it as just a personal watermark.

The link is died, here's a fresh one:

PDF blob: https://share.riseup.net/#7iXUTUFLKaWTe1y17YZRrA

Out of curiosity, has anybody ever made a tool which compares past voting behaviour in stead of comparisons with political parties campaign programs? I found some minor discrepancies between campaign programs and actual voting behaviour in the past.. ;)

If you're in the UK, I think you have TheyWorkForYou. Not sure about Netherlands though

I know of one: https://watstemthetparlement.nl/

In previous years, the people who brought you the Stemwijzer also made the Stemmentracker, which does that. But this year, https://www.stemmentracker.nl/ just redirects to the Stemwijzer.

I found https://www.partijgedrag.nl/ using a Google search, didn't look at it much yet.

Someone I know told me that the Stemmentracker is offline due to legal problems with their cookies. Weird.

What is happening there while I'm away?! It seems to get crazier and crazier with every message I hear.

I mean, not US level crazy, but the country I used as an example of how it should be done is gone.

Then you should also know that nobody ever trusted the politics since 2000. We should've expected this to happen, to be honest. Looks like we are still okay with their way of representing us.

NL (I am Dutch, not living in NL) is and has been doing very well; I am, from a distance, unsure what people are nagging about. Chances are any change will be for the worse. Luckily we are very bad at change but I do see too much of it (in the press) and none of that makes me proud...

Oh for crying out loud, I just moved here from the UK in part because the government there kept pulling shit like this

It's global.

This is emergent behavior from modern society's organizational & governing structures. Selective pressures reward these actions. Expect it to happen everywhere unless we implement some fundamental changes or new technologies to alter the risk/reward profile.

I have to recommend CGP Grey's rules for rulers, along with the death & dynasties followup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

Is there any action we can take against this bill? (I live in the NL)

The local news sites seem obsessed with American politics at the moment, so I assume that everyone is too distracted to notice the power grab.

How convenient

You can mail your senators: http://www.overheidslinks.nl/eerstekamer.htm

They are going to give their critical opinion about the bill now, before it can pass.

It's a young initiative and its focus thus far has mainly been on other issues, but nonetheless, you may want to reach out to Tech Solidarity NL to propose or coordinate actions.

https://www.techsolidarity.nl

You are pushing a anti-Trump / Wilders initiative here in response to overreach of the (current) establishment?

Well ...

What are Wilders's thoughts on this, then?

Nope, not in response to current administration. I was just suggesting that framework might lend itself to pushing back against current policy as well, not just the danger of a far-right-wing ascendancy.

Bits of Freedom (https://bof.nl) was working really hard on fighting this bill.

No, but you can start by following Bits of Freedom or Privacybarometer on your favourite social medium, and voting for the Pirate Party, who've seriously levelupped this election. That way you can help prevent things from getting worse before, instead of after, they happen.

And maybe, given enough time, be part of a movement that reverses this bill.

https://bof.nl/ https://www.privacybarometer.nl/ https://tk2017.piratenpartij.nl/

It's kind of odd that there's no Dutch version of this article (yet)... That said, I'm glad they're standing up for us.

Tweakers has one: https://tweakers.net/nieuws/121255/tweede-kamer-stemt-voor-w...

nu.nl: http://www.nu.nl/internet/4467753/tweede-kamer-stemt-in-met-...

ad.nl: http://www.ad.nl/binnenland/tweede-kamer-stemt-in-met-aftapw...

There is:

https://bof.nl/2017/02/14/kamer-kiest-voor-sleepnet-grootsch...

Hmm OK, then it's odd that I couldn't find it, but I guess I'm overestimating by browsing-fu :P

Thanks!

This was posted a few days ago: https://bof.nl/2017/02/14/kamer-kiest-voor-sleepnet-grootsch...

As far as I understand Wikipedia there is no court comparable to the German Federal Constitutional Court, which could block such a law if it violated the Dutch constitution. Is that correct?

I know from the American system that a judge can throw laws out that are unconstitutional (e.g. donald (duck)'s ban on people from specific countries), I guess that's what you mean by the German Federal Constitutional Court. I don't think the Dutch system has that.

The ECJ is the highest relevant court here; there have been rulings that some kinds of mass surveillance breach human rights, most recently http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng?i=001-160020

(ECHR has much the same role of power limitation in Europe as constitutional law. Germany has additional protections because of its history.)

It's mind boggling to me that people in the Netherlands would decide to let some court in Luxembourg overturn its domestic laws.

The Netherlands has no constitutional court. However, the First Chamber (Senate) does see checking of laws against the constitution as one of its tasks, and has rejected laws for such reasons in the recent past. Some parties are proposing a constitutional court in their programme for the coming elections.

> The new law will significantly broaden the agencies’ powers to include bulk data collection.

It's not clear to me what they actually are given power to do. Are they given free rein to collect anything they can get their hands on? Anything that crosses the national border? Are they allowed to spy on for example a whole city to find the communications of a suspect?

Time to start investing in dutch VPN providers? Boom in sales in 3,2,1... ?

More like time to ditch the Dutch endpoints. See how PIA reacted to similar legislation in the UK: https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2016/12/private-i...

Pretty soon we'll need endpoints on the ISS.

Iceland? Didn't the pirate party do pretty well there?

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