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Comment by dave_sullivan | Hacker News Reader

I agree with you.

Asia and Eastern Europe are off the list for me too. China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand [1]; people being arrested over political tweets [2]; Russia can poison people [3], shoot them [4], or have them accused of fake crimes[5].

I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this and hope I see this trend reversed in my lifetime. But people should be aware that it can happen in a modern society and is already happening in large parts of the world.

[1] http://time.com/4371283/hong-kong-bookseller-china-detention...

[2] http://mashable.com/2016/11/26/zunar-arrested-malaysia/#AHwL...

[3] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/06/world/europe/russia-vladi...

[4] http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-unaccountable-de...

[5] http://www.dw.com/en/russian-court-finds-alexei-navalny-guil...

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>China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand [1]; people being arrested over political tweets [2]; Russia can poison people [3], shoot them [4], or have them accused of fake crimes[5]. I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this

Well, the US can drone-kill people (including bystanders irrelevant to the primary non-tried target), abduct them from all over the world and transport them with no trial to Guantanamo, allows cops to shoot innocent people (e.g. for walking while black) at a record rate (compared to even developing world dictatorship standards) without much repercussions, and let's not get started with people forced to go to jail with BS accusations and plea deals or stuff like "three strikes" that can put people on life for ...stealing a pizza thrice.

Just because these people are not all local citizens or white, doesn't mean they are not wronged.

And all that's under Obama, so not much hope for those getting better under Trump...

Totally agree.

Starting with "Well," suggests it somehow negates my point though.

I think "Also" would be more appropriate, which kind of acknowledges the problems in other countries I cited while also pointing out very real weaknesses in America's justice system.

This might seem pedantic, but the common reply I see to "this country does bad stuff" reduces to "well this country does bad stuff too!" It's not a productive argument because it tries to deflect attention and normalize the actions in question. Instead, we should be focusing on how to address all of these issues, because they definitely exist.

>This might seem pedantic, but the common reply I see to "this country does bad stuff" reduces to "well this country does bad stuff too!"

I think it's valid to see things its perspective though, because people who say "we shouldn't turn it into 'yes, but X does this too'" are often using it as an excuse to continue to point fingers only towards one side, and not even the worst acting one...

But... your previous post specifically says "China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand" and goes on to say "I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this".

Can you explain how exactly the U.S. has yet to "come close to" your list? Your post created the very "us vs them" separation you now claim to disagree with. The child post was fairly clearly just answering that statement

And while we're talking deflection, you are the one who took a thread about the US border and its impact on travellers and made it about civil rights abuses by the rest of the world. Yes, they are all important; no, it is usually not possible to solve them all at once.

I think the implication is that he sees the things the US currently does as less bad than his own list. I'm not weighing in on the validity of his assessment, but I'm pretty sure that's what he meant.

> Can you explain how exactly the U.S. has yet to "come close to" your list?

Show me a similar incident to the Chinese booksellers thing in America. Or anyone being killed because they represented the political opposition. Miles away.

But that's not even my point. My point is: read the links listed; I'm not traveling to those countries; I hope the world becomes less crazy. That's all!

> And while we're talking deflection, you are the one who took a thread about the US border and its impact on travellers and made it about civil rights abuses by the rest of the world

Huh? I posted some links above. People should read them and make up their own mind, in addition to the OP. It's not a "one or the other" kind of thing, not sure why it would be.

> the common reply I see to "this country does bad stuff" reduces to "well this country does bad stuff too!"

It's not pedantic if you care about being rational. This act is a common logical fallacy called the "tu quoque fallacy": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

Why is this a fallacy?

Suppose country A is accused of doing something bad. It's logically irrelevant to that question whether some other country B also has done something bad.

To see it more clearly, take the same fallacy on an individual level. Person A is accused of murdering someone. Is it a valid defense to say "Well, my neighbor Person B also murdered someone, therefore it's OK that I did"? No, of course not. It's totally irrelevant whether someone else -- even the accuser -- has also murdered someone.

Yet making this fallacious counter-accusation is often effective in terms of emotional (i.e. irrational) manipulation of the audience, particularly when they are predisposed against B in some way.

Don't worry, the Republicans are working to fix all the horrible Obama policies, like making sure people can get health care, or keeping firearms out of the hands of people whose mental illnesses are so bad they can't even manage their own day-to-day lives.

The US has kidnapped people from Italy, and assassinated its own child citizens. The US (and most western countries) are already close to this, it's just that most citizens felt they were immune up till now.

This kind of overreach should always be opposed, no matter who it is done to, or where, because once it is acceptable to assassinate people with missiles, kidnap opponents, or record everyone's digital life whenever information crosses the border, all it takes is the wrong sort of people to take power and all the mechanisms are in place to control and oppress entire populations.

It's amazing that with the forces of globalization and Internet we think of the planet as whole and then a new government flips to us vs them mentality reversing peace work of years.

Less humans kill other humans now than ever in the past. I wonder if the media is to blame for the fear mongering?

I agree, globally many important indicators are positive in the long term but we shouldn't be complacent because perception and relative wealth over time can be more important to people than reality.

https://ourworldindata.org/a-history-of-global-living-condit...

The recent rise in nationalism after the 2008 crash is eerily similar to post 29. Globalisation has caused discontents, even if they are unjustified and the solutions proposed by demagogues are absurd and damaging, they appeal to some. Re the media, no I don't think so, humans are tribal and not very rational.

The right response to improvement, is to continue to improve. The world ain't perfect yet.

I see you mentioned Eastern Europe but only include Russia. Eastern Europe includes many other countries open to LGBT communities. Don't always believe the news headlines as they tend to exaggerate. Hungary and Romania have done big efforts towards this, still churches have a lot to say but peoples mentality changed, accepting diversity.

>Hungary and Romania have done big efforts towards this, still churches have a lot to say but peoples mentality changed, accepting diversity.

Really? Try talking to locals there not just about gays but also about refugees or even gypsies...

You're mixing up blatant discrimination (the first category) with two very complicated social problems.

People aren't necessarily against refugees, per se, but more against the idea of accepting anyone who declares himself to be a refugee, without checking that he is, in fact, one. Things are made worse by a few "refugee" cases where the "refugees" preferred to move away and live as illegal immigrants in Germany than as legal refugees in Hungary or Romania (a status which includes state aid, as meager as it may be in these countries).

The third point is really complicated and it does include discrimination but also a lack of trust and respect for the others from both sides. A lot of it has to do with the difficulties of integrating a very tight-knit nomadic culture into a modern, sedentary society where property rights are clear and respected.

I wouldn't judge the whole of Eastern Europe or Asia based on one country, there's plenty of safe and welcoming places in both, E. Europe and Asia.

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