Comment by ErrantX | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ErrantX | Hacker News Reader

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Frankly I don't care if anyone is anti-western, so long as "anti-western" means "anti people who are harmlessly drawing pictures".

What I'm trying to say is that the profile of the US (the general symbol of Westernism in Islamic states) is already extremely low. A lot of people consider the US rude and intolerant; that's just the image that has unfortunately developed.

Ordinary people in those states are probably looking at this and thinking "well this just proves it doesn't it".

I'm not sure alienating people further is a clever idea (us vs. them is one reason why extremism is fostered on both sides).

It's not even really about causing offence (as already pointed out, everyone is offended by someone) but about "proving" to people in those states we don't really understand the problem...

This is pitched as sticking a finger up to extremists; a sentiment I utterly agree with. What it actually is is feeding them ammunition, and potentially causing more resentment in Mulsim countries. I can't help feeling there is a better way to stick that finger up :)

Also; this stinks of fear to me.

I don't think we do understand the problem. What is understandable about being offended when someone draws a picture of a person? It's absolute nonsense and doesn't require any respect whatsoever.

What if I'm offended when you wear your hat backwards and threaten to kill you? What's less special about me than about muslims?

> What is understandable about being offended when someone draws a picture of a person?

It's a culture thing. Like.. why do some innocent (to us) gestures in Japan cause offence? It appears inexplicable.

> What if I'm offended when you wear your hat backwards and threaten to kill you?

What if your whole street is made uncomfortable by me wearing my hat backwards - but don't want to kill me for it. Is me walking up and down the street for a day with my hat on backwards a particularly good way to denounce you?

I'd argue there are better ways; like exposing you to the wider world (obviously, the solution to extremism is a harder problem)

Hmm, I don't see this as an attempt to expose muslim extremists to muslim moderates.

I see it as an attempt for us as a liberal society to join in an affirmation of our principles.

Perhaps others will be offended, but uniting as a society around our treasured values is more important. Bringing the moderate muslims into the fold can happen later, once we're sure that our fold actually exists and is what we think it is (tolerant and liberal).

> Hmm, I don't see this as an attempt to expose muslim extremists to muslim moderates.

Sorry, that was just an example of IMO a better way to react to your hypothetical extremism. It was a bad one but I was trying to avoid suggesting reporting you to the police (which was a worse one :P).

i.e. it was a solution rather than a "show".

In terms of a real solution to this problem.. well clearly the most sensible one is to ignore the majority of the threats (it avoids propagating fear and forces the extremists out of the limelight - one of their greatest weapons).

> What I'm trying to say is that the profile of the US (the general symbol of Westernism in Islamic states) is already extremely low. A lot of people consider the US rude and intolerant; that's just the image that has unfortunately developed. Ordinary people in those states are probably looking at this and thinking "well this just proves it doesn't it".

That's odd, I thought this day was about fighting intolerance, not supporting it.

Funny. Intolerance is being used in two diametrically opposed ways here:

1) Can Muslims tolerate other's rights to express themselves?

2) Can Freedom-Of-Speecher's tolerate Muslim's intolerance?

Is tolerating intolerance tolerant or intolerant?

It seems almost like a koan.

I think the truly tolerant person would be very much like a "stoner" here: tolerating both those who draw pictures of Muhammad, and tolerating (read: understanding) the outrage of Muslims. "OK man... I see you're drawing a picture... OK man... I see you're stabbing that other dude..."

That right there is ultimate tolerance. Holding to no belief in other words.

Where do you find yourself?

> Can Muslims tolerate other's rights to express themselves?

I don't think it's about that. One Muslim living in an Arab state (who I discuss these issues with) said the following:

People here won't be too bothered about Americans drawing Mohammed in itself. What they will roll their eyes at is the fact that those people think they are making some big statement when, actually, it is the reaction expected of them by extremists. It's getting predictable - and it is the ignorance that is getting tedious

Personally I have no belief (as you put it). I do think this is silly and misses the point though :)

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