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Comment by Maarten88 | Hacker News Reader

Rwanda also has this policy, since 2008, and they enforce it. The country is very clean, it looks different than other African countries (and countries like the US), just because there is no plastic rubbish everywhere. I think this is a very good policy, and would welcome it at home.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/15/rwanda...

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My father told me that American highways used to be lined with trash until it was made illegal to throw trash out the window.

In Silicon Valley, there is far more trash along highways than there was 30 years ago, well beyond simple per-capita pace.

Perhaps a new marketing campaign would be useful.

How about something like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlFD0Zyl_f0

This is the classic of the genre:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGu4AwL5Kho

I've driven through quite a bit of the United States. Attitudes to roadside littering vary wildly. Some eastern Washington state highways and rural Kentucky highways have mind bogglingly improbable amounts of litter for the number of people which travel them.

Time to roll out the "Crying Indian Ad" for another generation.

Littering just pisses me off... I think that and vandalizing publicly accessible restrooms are the two things most likely to inspire a violent response in my mind. It's a complete lack of morality and respect for other's property, and community in general.

> It's a complete lack of morality and respect for other's property, and community in general.

Unless you're visiting from another state, it's YOUR OWN property; you are the public.

I don't normally complain/comment about downvotes, but I'm not getting the downvotes here. Input? Maybe my sentence was just poorly worded?

If I had to guess, I'd say that there are two possible interpretations of your comment:

1) Public spaces are your property as well, so you should feel even worse about trashing your own space.

2) Public spaces are yours, after all, and you can do whatever you want with your own property.

Downvoters most likely assumed that you intended the latter.

yeah, I realized that people may have been reading #2 - I cottoned on to that about 5 minutes ago. :)

#1 was what I meant, and it's how I was hearing it in my head in my own voice when I typed it!! :)

Why do people not feel bad about trashing their own public spaces? I don't want to go all "leave it to beaver", but is there no pride in your environment at all?

by publicly accessible, I'm not just meaning public restrooms, but also restrooms at restaurants, gas stations, etc too, that are accessible to the public (and/or customers).

Funny thing, he was actually Italian iirc.

You'd think green liberal Washington would be low on the list, but I agree. It's hard to spot in the summer when there is greenery everywhere, but when things die off in the winter, all that trash becomes very visible.

I've been told this too. There was a massive anti-littering campaign in the 1950s called "Keep America Beautiful" and it was ironically initiated by the packaging industry[0].

[0]http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2006/05/origins-anti-litter-...

I don't think its ironic at all. Some American industries actually do attempt to pro-actively fix issues to insure long term profitability. Consider groups like UL or ESRB, no government intervention there.

I like the example of pesticides. The are some really nasty pesticides that aren't banned by law, but there are industry groups that work to reduce and effectively ban the ones that cause birth defects and obvious toxic effects. If you look at a list of pesticides India has banned and compare it to a list that the USA banned the difference and a few more are effectively banned by this group. Nothing is stopping someone from making these pesticides at home and using them on their garden but its like UL for pesticides, no one buys in large quantity without these guys approval.

I think they do this seemingly altruistic thing largely because trust makes for better customers.

Admittedly ESRB was formed after the government (senator Joe Lieberman, famously) threatened to regulate the video game industry if they didn't form such a voluntary group.

The ESRB was one of many possible responses, it could have been a different response. Like suing Joe or bribing him or his opponent.

Self-generated codes-of-good-practice usually emerge from out of the shadow of a big governmental stick on the horizon.

And they generally help the industry members protect themselves from new competitors.

That is certainly one view of it, but there is a clear difference between groups like UL and The Tobacco industry.

I am not trying to that everything will work out in some kind of pure capitalist ideal utopia, because I think it clearly won't. Rather I think some industries have enough decent people in them that they can find good ways to increase profit and increase long term good will.

People here make is sound like the ESRB was the only thing stopping video games being legislated out of existence. When the game industry chose to do it, they did it to attempt to make it easy to wholesale games correctly so walmart could confidentally buy games and not mix in porn and sex stores could readily get get all the AO games they wanted, this certainly prevented a few embarrassing situations with porn being mixed in with kid toys.

The video game industry could have done something else; a purely selfish and stupidly self motivated industry might have sued the government, hired lobbyists, or made illegal back room deals some other way like it seems apparent. Big Pharma, Big Sugar, the "Military Industrial Complex", Big Oil and countless other Big whatever get accused of this all the time and often with decent evidence.

>I think they do this seemingly altruistic thing largely because trust makes for better customers.

I think this more than anything, plus no company wants to be associated with negativity (I mean, birth defects, obviously ... but also less serious stuff like street litter)

I believe "Don't Mess With Texas" was also about littering.

As disposable cans, cups, bottles, and other packaging became more widespread in the postwar years, so did litter, and some blamed the companies that manufactured them—in 1953, for example, Vermont passed a law banning the sale of beer in non-refillable bottles. Consequently, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Seagram's, Procter and Gamble, Dupont, Dow, and others used their influence to found Keep America Beautiful.

One of my favorite scenes from Mad Men was Don and his family leaving their garbage everywhere after a picnic in a beautiful forest.

edit: panic to picnic

Here's the scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roREnVhd_og

And a reddit thread about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2aj23u/in_an...

I wonder if Mad Men is more of a caricature. My family would go on picnics in the 60s and we'd clean up after ourselves. Maybe it was because my father was an Air Force officer and the USAF took a dim view of disrespect of other peoples' property. I remember AF bases as always being clean and well taken care of.

I'm not quite as old as you, but I'm old enough to remember when not littering was considered laudable and not simply common decency.

You still get the problem where pickup trucks are a popular vehicle. It's not intentional (although perhaps from a lack of caring sometimes), but trash thrown in the back simply flies out when cruising down the highway.

I own a truck. It goes maybe 60mph downhill with a tailwind. If you leave anything lighter than a popcan back there it is flying out. A square box has terrible and unpredictable airflow. Truck owners who keep trash in their bed 100% know and accept they are littering. Do not give these asshats a pass.

American highways are certainly still lined with trash.

It's true. There is a riff in "Mad Men" where they just walk off and leave picnic litter in a park. That was also true.

There was this scene in Mad Men where Don Draper, Betty Draper and the kids go out for a picnic in the new family car. They eat lunch in a grassy field, then when they're done, they pack up their basket and blanket, leaving the beer cans, food wrappers, empty bottles, plastic cutlery, and chicken bones scattered on the grass.

That scene shocked and horrified me more than all the sexism, racism, and homophobia combined.

Edit: saw the other comments, looks like I wasn't the only one affected by that scene.

That still happens in America. See pictures of Washington DC the day after 4th of July. Or Golden Gate Park in SF after a big festival. So many people leave their trash looks it like a dump.

Compare to say Cherry Blossom watching in Japan where a large park will be entirely covered in people but when it's over they will have all cleaned it up.

It's a cultural issue. I have no idea how to influence western cultures to care as much. I've see similar things in most European countries (trashing places).

2 weeks ago on my way to work, I watched a guy pull off to the side of the road. He opened his car door, and just dumped trash out - a few small bags of trash. He had just driven past a gas station and convenience store - both with publicly accessible trash cans to throw stuff away - you don't even have to get out of your car. It's a bizarre mindset some people have - let me drive past the driver-accessible trash cans in a paved parking lot, then pull off on to grass and dirt to dump my crap out of the car. There are some aspects of the US which are great, but this large segment of the population which has less than zero regard for public space is... truly crappy.

Counterpoint: I went on vacation to the Dominican Republic a few years back, and went to one of the more remote villages where there was a river outlet. There was a guy there who wanted to take us out on his boat, but we looked in the water and about half of it was covered with an opaque drift of plastic jugs, pieces of styrofoam, etc. I think in the US we have some antisocial assholes roaming around like the one you saw, but it's not like everyone does it by default.

That's awful. I'm fairly sure here in Canada, people would pick the trash up and chase you down the road with it. I've never seen it happen though.

I tried to get a picture of his car, but the sun was at too difficult of an angle. Another thought that made me pause about confronting him was guns. Yay, thanks rampant gun ownership - you certainly prevented an ugly confrontation there, as the idea that I might be shot for confronting someone about trash dumping prevented too much action on my part.

I'd posted in our local facebook community page, and 2 other interesting stories came up.

1. someone posted they'd seen something similar a few weeks earlier. They'd confronted the person, and the other person pulled a gun out and threatened them. I do not know if the original person involved police after that. While it might sound far-fetched to some, I live in the rural south of the US.

2. someone else posted a similar story, and had taken a picture of the person dumping trash in public and posted it to the facebook group. that poster was harassed online, with many people complaining that they were "violating the other person's privacy" by posting their picture online without consent.

I get truly demoralized at time by living in this area (we're planning a move, but possibly not far enough away).

> rural south of the US

That's the problem. Get out of there ASAP. It has no redeeming qualities. Best move of my life.

Unless you have deep roots there and you want to take on the monumental task of actually making your own part of it a better place. Maybe join the city council of a town near a place like Atlanta or Tuscaloosa, and try to spread their civilization a little further into the wilderness.

Wow, you dont like the south, but stop being a bigot. You are demonstrating the EXACT blind hatred you imply you are against. STOP.

Agreed. As someone who has spent most of his life in various parts of the South, there are good and bad parts, same as anywhere else.

I like the warm weather, beaches, neighborhood friendliness, greenery, and relaxed cost of living.

It is utterly bizarre. This stuff angers and confuses me in equal measure. It's like a complete refusal to participate in society, just the expectation that someone else will come and tidy up after you. How do these people behave elsewhere in their lives?

One example I keep seeing is people who buy a pack of cigarettes, rip off the plastic film covering and just drop it on the floor. It sends me into a silent rage every time.

If you've spent your whole life feeling victimized by society then you do whatever little things you can to give a big middle finger back. If you're a Black single mom that has to work two jobs to get by, maybe it's easy for you to justify throwing your McDonald's wrappers on the parking lot ground.

The race of the person was not mentioned, it was interesting that you assumed that they were black -- although I do not disagree with your point.

It was an example of a kind of person being victimized by society.

This is an interesting way of looking at it. I wonder if this really is the psychology of people who do stuff like this.

If this is the case, it would be interesting to find out whether there is some correlation between wealth inequality and rates of littering.

A counter point would be all the smoking middle class people I see everyday that throw their butts on the ground.

I have a different theory: I call it the "raised by wolves theory". If a person doesn't have the benefit of good parenting/good examples, they grow up to be less socialized.

The single mom in your example may have had little parenting because her mom was working 3 jobs perhaps.

Anyone else remember the "don't litter" public service announcement on TV with a crying Indian?

I think a much simpler explanation is that most people don't bother justifying much of their behavior in the first place.

I don't think you can neatly separate people by their behavior in this manner, in general, but also in particular when it comes to 'automatic', frequent behavior like disposing of trash. People are irrational.

Most smokers I know will carefully separate their trash and walk hundreds of meters to put everything in the right bin... and yet dispose of their cigarettes all over the place. To my shame I have to admit I was one of those people. Somehow the inconsistency just didn't cross my mind. So many other thoughts took precedence. I'm not saying that this is an excuse, mind.

I do understand the anger and frustration, but I think it's both fairer and more productive to assume that people are not doing these things to intentionally cause harm, and that they might well be upstanding citizens in other areas of life.

I smoke and I was pretty much the person you described until a couple years ago when I saw a friend going out of his way to dispose of the cigarette butts in a trash can. Since them I do whatever I have to do, including storing it inside my cigarette pack, to not throw any butts on the floor.

Same here! Monkey see, monkey do.

As a non-smoker, it's my number one gripe with smokers and why I used to consider them scum with little remorse when places started restricting where they smoke, this I judge smokers for more than anything else. So many butts strewn about every where, outside side exits, in the grass by benches, do they think fiberglass is biodegradable or something? I can be in a nice place, a outdoor setting that is other wise pristine, but you'll see a mound of cigerette butt's. It'll often be next to an ash tray or cigarette disposal too.

I don't fathom how you don't/didn't notice, it's like throwing bubblegum wrappers on the ground, yeah its small, but when you smoke packs of cigarettes in the same spot it adds up, not to mention more of a hassle to clean up by others like picking up confetti off the ground. I'm glad you realized it, but I can't imagine how people are utterly clueless about it being a problem (I just assumed all smokers were a-holes because they didn't care).

Well, the expectation that someone else will come and tidy up after you is exactly how society works. It's just that everybody is the someone else.

I say this as the weird guy random walking the parking lot, picking up trash and transporting it to the wastebin.

A lot of research has gone into what makes people behave this way. Read about "Tragedy of Commons"[1] and "Diffusion of Responsibility" [2] for more insights.

The net-net is that people rationalize their actions using whatever means necessary.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility

There's absolutely no visible consequence of leaving your trash in the park in a big city. The city workers will be by later that day to clean it up, or more likely in San Francisco where I live, scavengers will pick it up for recycling within minutes. Out of sight, out of mind. And why not? We certainly pay enough taxes to support those services.

Please tell me this a troll.

I think that is probably not an uncommon mindset.

Even in Cherry Blossom season, or at fireworks, there's random bits of trash that are flying around.

Though they also make sure to make huuuuge trash cans for the events so that it's not a major pain to throw stuff away. Most people don't want to litter, after all.

The main reason for the cleanliness afterwards are all the extra staff during those periods that go through and pick this stuff up.

> Though they also make sure to make huuuuge trash cans for the events so that it's not a major pain to throw stuff away.

I have never been to a festival where these were not full of rubbish to overflowing.

http://www.keepbritaintidy.org/japan-fans-clean-stadium-afte...

With big festivals with thousands of people gathering in park or square, you can expect this in Europe. Problem is that you buy a drink in a plastic cup or bottle, maybe a sandwhich or fries with it, and you need to dispose of the plastic or paper. Where do you leave it? There simply are not enough trash cans around or nearby. In a big crowded place it's not easy to move around, you can get lost etc. So people throw their garbage on the ground. By the way, all available trash cans are full and have a pile load of garbage next to them. So even if they are full, people still use them to keep the trash together.

I don't see the problem here. Afterwards cleaners come and clean the square, streets, whatever. It's part of the game.

On normal days, people here keep the cities, parks and streets rather clean.

Simple, carry the thrash until you find a non full trash can or dispose of it at home.

You're just making excuses for the lazy and inconsiderate.

> I don't see the problem here. Afterwards cleaners come and clean the square, streets, whatever. It's part of the game.

You think this is a game??

I remember noticing a more deliberate approach to trash in European cities when I visited. Not just throwing it anywhere but setting used cans etc. in the corner, out of the way.

There's a deposit on cans and bottles in many places in Europe, so they're left where homeless people may find them.

I don't know about Europe generally but in the UK the number and size of bins in crowded public places is limited because the IRA used to use them for hiding bombs. Seems quaint these days though!

Japan is very dirty too. Right after fireworks in summer you are basically walking on garbage on the way back. Go to the mount Fuji for a hike and you will see mountains of trash on the hiking trails. its only clean because they clean a lot. not because people dont throw stuff.

I think part of the issue is cultural, and part of it is education.

Japanese society is rooted in Confuscianism, with an emphasis on social harmony. I don't know how we change or improve our cultural technology in the West to move away from ideas like "protect yourself", "look out for number one".

The Japanese also make their school children clean their own school. I think there's obvious value in teaching children to take care of their environment / community. http://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2001/11/30/lifestyle/kids-g...

Well thank goodness we have Betsy Devos on the case.

What about China then ? Its Confucianism when it works.

In London, saw someone drive out the garage under my flats, go about 10 metres then chuck some litter out the window and keep going.

Was perplexed more than anything.

They didn't just "leave it"; Betty literally shook everything off of the picnic blanket and onto the ground before they left. The mess was quite glaring in an otherwise clean area.

At work we have two bins next to each other. One is clearly for garbage (banana peels, unrecyclable items, etc.). The other is clearly for recycling. They are _right next to each other_

I see aluminum cans in the garbage bin daily. I can't fathom the logic.

Yep, I was totally shocked when I saw it. If anyone is curious of the scene -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhcKuMjvcCk

I live and walk along the Charles river and over the last couple of decades Boston and surrounding towns have been actively trying to keep the river and the river walk clean.

Despite all the signs I still have seen people pick up their dogs poop before they pick up their own trash. I literally watched an invidial drop a Twix wrapper while picking up their dogs poop (the fine for not picking up your dog is actually less but there are more signs and I guess stronger culture awareness).

There are signs all over the place not to dump goddam bread into the river or use aggressive fertilizer as this increases runoff and messes up the aquatic wild life.

It's ironic that people will pick up their dog shit because by the middle of summer the swan,geese,duck population is so high from bread dumping that there is bird shit all over the places (walk way). Some of the geese and swans have excrement that is very comparable to the largest dogs.

The US National Park Service policy on garbage in the wilderness used to be burning it and burying the remains. It's not uncommon to find old scorched beer cans at some campsites today. They also casually encouraged interacting with animals, including bears.

It was the "Give a Hoot, don't Pollute" program. Pioneered by Lady Bird Johnson, first Lady. Nobody thought twice about it, until made aware of the issue.

Parts of the US have this policy (plastic bags), too. I thought I'd dislike it, but then I realized how amazing it was that most plastic rubbish disappeared.

Mylar chip bags and 20oz soda bottles... What a revolution for litter and health it'd be if we got rid of those, too.

Plastic bottles and cans really need to have a nationwide deposit system in the US - the way Norway does it helps a lot - they have either a 1 or 2.5kr deposit depending on the size of the bottle, and all the grocery stores have a machine that you feed them into that checks for the label and gives you a slip to get the money from the cashier.

It'd be nice if we could find a way to extend that type of system to other types of waste, but that gets more difficult.

deposit systems have a limited lifetime, the get killed by inflation. For example, glass beer bottles in GER have a deposit of 8 cent. This used to be 15 Pfennig, a pretty high amount when the deposit was introduced. But since you can't raise the deposit (bottles suddenly would raise in value) and inflation pushes down the purchasing power, even bottle collectors tend to leave glass bottles behind.

You can raise it. South Australia recently raised it from 5c to 10c.

Speaking of Norway - we've also dealt nicely with the plastic bag issue by having sturdy grocery bags that we subsequently also use as garbage bags (big black thrash bags aren't commonly used).

A few years ago the government suggested taxing plastic bags to gain revenue, but it was discarded since the environmental organizations concluded it would be bad for the environment (as more people would throw garbage directly into thrash cans/buy thrash bags).

Conversely my regional grocery store chain has recently switched to even thinner plastic bags. Used to be you could at least use them for trash, but now they're pretty much useless.

While I love the idea, I'd much rather see the money required to rollout a national deposit system go to expanding domestic and commercial recycling programs nationally. This includes subsidizing any costs with providing recycling bins as well as building and maintaining sorting centers.

> Plastic bottles and cans really need to have a nationwide deposit system in the US

No, they really don't. Having spent enough time in states that do and states that don't, I can tell you that having a deposit system encourages some bad behavior and doesn't really solve the problem.

1. It encourages scavenger people that dig through recycling and garbage making a mess of things in order to find large bottles with a deposit. On face value you think, 'yay, we get free sanitation workers cleaning up the city'. The reality is, they find the most efficient way to dig through and don't care about throwing disposable trash all over to get the loot.

2. Hoarding. I've seen people's kitchens and basements filled with cans because they want to do it all in one shot or for some special occasion. It makes a mess and is super annoying. You like fruit flies? This is how you get fruit flies.

3. It's inefficient. People who have the means will still not care about collecting the deposit because it's a PITA to go down to the store with the empties. The only people who get excited about it are the same people who think a tax refund is actually a gift from the government..

While it might solve some of the above problems, you won't find much luck making deposits $1/bottle or something in the US because it's only going to make life more of a pain for the poor. It's not a workable solution.

Living in a country with a bottle deposit (Germany), I have never encountered any of the points you brought up.

In the specific case of Rwanda, it's also important to realize that the plastic ban, as well as the universally celebrated higher participation of women in administration and politics are also fantastic PR of the regime essentially aimed at the West.

Dictatorial regimes that implement actually beneficial policies I can tolerate. Less good than a democracy in terms of social and political freedom, but better than dictatorships that don't implement any benign policies.

That said my knowledge of African politics is limited to a few news articles a week so I can't form a meaningful opinion about how well or badly countries there are run except in really obvious cases like Zimbabwe.

> Dictatorial regimes that implement actually beneficial policies I can tolerate. Less good than a democracy in terms of social and political freedom, but better than dictatorships that don't implement any benign policies.

The policies are not really the problem actually, especially when they are, as you say, beneficial. In a perfect world where media coverage respects basic ethical rules of journalism, there shouldn't be any issue really. Unfortunately, in the case of Rwanda, I tend to see the magnifying glass systematically being put on 'favorable' PR-stuff like that, vs constitutional reform, mysterious disappearances of political dissidents of the regime (sometimes abroad), open support to militias in Congo. e.g: I wonder what someone on the receiving end of bullets in the Kivu region would think of the hagiographic article of the guardian.

Ultimately, the survival of most of this kind of regime depends heavily on the way they are perceived globally, undoubtedly, the Rwandan regime beautifully manufactures its image.

A bit OT, but interesting -

Smugglers work on the dark side of Rwanda’s plastic bag ban

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2016/2/25/rwanda-plast...

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