The incompatibility of CAHSR with other rail strikes me as a repeat of the BART mistake.
The incompatibility of CAHSR with other rail strikes me as a repeat of the BART mistake.
As far as I can tell, TGV tracks are built to vey tight tolerances, but Continuous Welded Rail (CWR) is a worldwide standard on new railway lines, nothing special. I most recently saw some thermite welding equipment just about to be used in Dublin (Ireland) during the laying of new tramway tracks. So there's nothing exotic about the welding process, though it is quite dramatic.
All track with passenger rail on it should be welded, so not sure what your point is. Also, every passenger rail should ideally be electrified; more freight trains should be electrified as well.
Yes high speed track is built to much tighter tolerances, but high speed trains can go on lower class tracks with slower speed. Plenty of ICE trains in Germany run on 160 km/h track. Extreme examples include TGVs being pulled by diesel trains to reach beach resorts.
TGV was most definitely started that way. It was engineered to be able to run on regular railway ("standard gauge high-speed train") so that the existing "inner-city" rails could be used to reach inside existing metropolis, but it was designed primarily to run on new specific rights of way, regular service started on the dedicated "LN1" (now LGV Sud-Est) between Paris and Lyon: the line is 409km (254mi) for a total ride distance (station to station) of 425km (264mi).
> They are systems that are integrated with regional and urban rail, and have grown to have more dedicated higher speed sections over time.
The size of the dedicated high-speed network grew over time, but high-speed trains were always intended to run on high-speed networks, there's just no point otherwise, "regular" trainsets will reach older lines's rated speed just fine.
Yes they are standard gauge and can run on regular old rail and that's plenty useful, but no that's not what they were built for, it would be a complete waste of the rolling stock.
As an aside, calling an idea complete bullshit based on an nitpick is pretty weak, especially since you're wrong: when tgv started in September 1981, they only had part of the line constructed. Without compatibility, I.e. a completely dedicated system, you could've only traveled between two random towns.
It means the exact same fucking thing in every context. Dedicated means infrastructure which exists solely for high-speed train, not that high-speed trains can only exist on the dedicated infrastructure.
> It would mean complete incompatibility
That's completely nonsensical. European high-speed lines are dedicated, non-high-speed trains do not run on them, it's the high-speed rolling stock which is compatible with older electrified rail lines because they use a standard gauge and compatible/switchable electrical feed (some of the more complex rolling stock having to cross multiple borders can handle 4 different power inputs).
> This is not what EU high speed rail was built on, they use a lot of legacy lines
And they use dedicated infrastructure and have done so from the start.
> As an aside, calling an idea complete bullshit based on an nitpick is pretty weak
It's not a nitpick to point out that your statement is factually entirely incorrect.
> especially since you're wrong: when tgv started in September 1981, they only had part of the line constructed.
That was still a dedicated right-of-way which it started with, putting the lie to your statement.
> Without compatibility
That has nothing to do with your original statement. Your statement was not that high-speed rolling stock should be compatible with legacy rail and able to use it. Your statement was that european high-speed rail "definitely didn't start" with "dedicated rights of way", and further that high-speed rail only have some dedicated rights of way.
Probably a different mistake but BART uses 5'6" rail gauge. Standard US rail gauge is 4'8.5". This means that every railcar, every everything, has to be custom made with no economies of scale.
No one can remember why they did this.
Interesting. When I saw this, I wondered if it was to match another standard gauge that was judged to be superior. But, looking at the list of rail gauges on wikipedia[0], 5'6" is the gauge for railways in India ("Indian broad gauge" to be specific). The initial BART rolling stock seems to have been build by Rohr, Inc.[1], which is based in California. So it seems unlikely that they were benefiting from any economies of scale from Indian rail construction. Rohr also seems to have built rolling stock for the Washington, D.C. metro, which uses a near-standard 4'8.25" gauge[2].
Perplexing.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_gauge
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohr,_Inc. (you'll need manually add the period to the end of the URL, because of how HN converts this into a link)
http://myprogressiverailroading.com/rail_forum/maintenance_o...
BTW, Pittsburg uses 5'6" as well.
DC Metro is even more ridiculous. It's only 1/4" different from standard gauge.
FYI, the URL encoding for "." is "%2E", so replacing period with %2E works: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohr,_Inc%2E
If that's the case, obfuscating the reasons for these decisions is a rational move.
I want to believe that the different gauge standards is a bit like the proliferation of programming languages in software - they solve their slightly different problem space well. Is this true?
The construction process does seem to be insufficiently standardized. There's all that falsework and ground paving. Compare the way it's done in China, with standardized bridge sections placed on pylons by a very specialized machine.[1]
Can you clarify what you mean by that? Most high speed rail in Europe does not have bogies between cars.
Example from Austria with 550mm platform height:
* Local trains: http://blog-oebb.at/backend/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/cityj...
* High speed rail: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Railjet-...
If the floor is below the top of the wheels, there has to be a narrow section at the car ends. The wheels have to go someplace. The lost space can be minimized by sharing a bogie between two cars.
(If the floor is below the axle line, as with ultra low floor trams, it's really complicated.)
Eurostar is the exception to every train. It's a monster of complexity because it has to work on three systems. It also does not have 550mm platform height. I think it has 750?
> some TGV trainsets
But not because of the platform height but because of stability in case of a crash. The TGVs with bogies between the cars has the same general height setup as the traditional ones.
> (If the floor is below the axle line, as with ultra low floor trams, it's really complicated.)
Sure, but that's hardly relevant here. Trams are generally set up completely different. Vienna for instance has the ULF tram and it's being phased out because such a low floor setup is just generally a bad idea for many different reasons. The new rolling stock will be Bombardier Flexity.
sharing with freight otrain slower commuter trains really reduces the value of HSR, especially on an older, slower right of way.
This approach has its problems too, but I do agree with you hear type of monolithic projects always become a boondoggle.