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Comment by nabla9 | Hacker News Reader

>'Putin isn't Hitler!' 'Trump isn't Hitler!' Wow, congratulations! You have failed the most basic lesson of learning from history in order not to repeat it!

>I wrote about this fallacy extensively in Winter is Coming and elsewhere, but am happy to recap it here. Of course Putin isn't Hitler, and Donald Trump isn't even Putin—no matter how much he would like to be. The point is that no one is making comparisons to the monster Adolf Hitler became in the 1940s. But in the 20s, even for most of the 30s, Hitler wasn't Hitler either! There could be no more important lesson to understand than how a race-baiting demagogue came to power in an educated and liberal country like Germany and how he transformed that nation into a fascist death machine capable of World War and unimaginable acts.

-- Garry Kasparov

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Zeit has eye opening article Adolf Hitler : "Wait Calmly"

http://www.zeit.de/wissen/geschichte/2017-02/adolf-hitler-ch...

They describe how journalists, even big liberal newspapers, big-business representatives, and conservatives had all the same illusion that Hitler would be something that could be managed and lived trough. Business leaders and conservatives aligned with him because there seemed to be some common interests they could work trough together.

""In the Frankfurter Zeitung, politics editor Benno Reifenberg expressed doubt Hitler had the "social competence" for the office of chancellor, but didn’t think it was out of the question that the responsibility of his office might transform him in ways that could earn him respect. Like Theodor Wolff, Reifenberg described it as "a hopeless misjudgment of our country to believe a dictatorial regime could be forced upon it." "The diversity of the German people demands democracy," he wrote.""

Hitler needed only five months in power to change everything.

Let's speak plainly.

Are you suggesting that Trump intends to abolish democracy or commit genocide?

Obviously no one has a crystal ball, but do you think it would be completely out of character?

Personally, I don't think history repeats itself like that, I rather believe he is the second coming of Berlusconi - someone who is rich from the beginning and wants to corrupt the country, intimidate or buy out the media and have coke parties with underage hookers, while filling his coffers.

But I wouldn't be surprised if he started a war with eg. China just to rally the country behind him. And something like that can get out of hand quick.

>intends to abolish democracy

He don't even know what that is. He has already demonstrated that he was surprised that he can't rule the government as a CEO-king. Bannon believes in big war that cleansing the system, so maybe he does. Attorney General Sessions has shown clear contempt against civil rights.

>or commit genocide?

Of course not. Fascism is not equal to genocide. He want's to kill families of those who he opposes. So he is probably with some mass murders, but I don't think it's on the top of his mind.

Compare two fascist states in Europe, Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini. They took two different paths. In Germany fascism developed without restraints into self destructive expansion. In Italy fascism turned into normal authoritarian rule and dictatorship under Mussolini.

If the assumption is that comparisons to fascists and Hitler all suggest some kind of holocaust, they are meaningless.

> If the assumption is that comparisons to fascists and Hitler all suggest some kind of holocaust, they are meaningless.

They are meaningless.

The Holocaust is the reason everyone still talks about Hitler 70 years later, the reason people still compare politicians they don't like to Hitler.

If you merely wish to discuss "normal authoritarian rule" there are hundreds of other leaders to whom you could make less emotionally charged comparisons.

But I'm curious, now that you've said Trump doesn't know what democracy is and offered a comparison with "normal authoritarian rule and dictatorship under Mussolini" ...

Do you think we'll still hold elections 4 years and 8 years from now and Trump will resign peacefully when his term ends?

>The Holocaust is the reason everyone still talks about Hitler 70 years later,

That's vulgar comparison for uneducated people. If the only difference between Hitler and some other dictator is genocide, we haven't learned anything from history.

All fascist movements, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco etc. used similar methods that made fascism different from other dictatorships and authoritarian moments.

Suggested reading: The Anatomy of Fascism, Robert O. Paxton. In that book Paxton rescues the fascism as a concept from a insult into meaningful concept.

It easy to make such comparisons to fascism without invoking thoughts of the Holocaust: compare to Mussolini or Franco instead of Hitler.

Trump kept a book of Hitler's speeches by his bed, not books of Mussolini speeches.

And here again you seek to imply something without actually saying it.

What do you mean to imply by that?

Bannon does intend to abolish democracy and trump would have no problem with it, as evidenced by his attacks on the judiciary and free press and demands for respect for him and his family. As to genocide, mass deportation has certainly been contemplated, no one in the admin has suggested genocide yet.

Let's not pretend this "Free Press" is made up of a collection of idealistic self-starters with permanently furrowed brows.

Good for him on calling out purveyors of Fake News such as CNN.

If you are going to make this argument (which seems more and more common because the original direct comparisons to Hitler fall flat), how does Trump match up to Hitler in the 20s and 30s?

Where is Trump's attempted coup? Where is Trump's Mein Kampf talking about living space in Eastern Europe and the greatness of Germany and his hatred of Jews? Where is Trump's paramilitary? That was all in place prior to 1930.

Hitler rose to power in a populace that wasn't just "liberal and educated" but had also been ruled by a jingoist elite since the Prussians came to power. Hitler was an ass but Wilhelm was just as bad in various ways and preceded him. The Wiemar Republic was a shaky government crushed by defeat and a broken economy. That's not America circa 2017.

What's comparable?

I don't dispute that Trump is full of hate and is self-serving and manipulative. I don't dispute he lacks tact and even a proper understanding of politics. But if you are going to pull up history, at least treat it with respect. Put it within it's context.

What scares me is if a politician did the exact thing Trump is doing but did it with more tact and with lies that were harder to point out, we'd applaud them. Play governments off of each other and play up identity politics of various kinds and lie to citizens for decades (as has been the American way) and nobody really complains, but someone comes to power who lies to your face instead of behind your back and he's Hitler? Bomb the hell out of countries and destabilize them and it is politics as usual but refuse those same countries entry and now we care?

Nothing goes exactly the same way as before. No analogy is perfect. Comparison to Hitler and Mussolini is best in their populist strategy.

Politically United States is extremely divided. Roughly 20-25 percent of Americans are very supportive to Trump. Among them are far right Christians who look up to Pence.

Trump has no need for goons on the street. Trump needs only one third of senate on his side and he can break all rules all the time with no consequences. Impeachment and Section 4 of the 25th Amendment rules both require 2/3 majority to remove the president. As long as DHS and major law enforcement organization choose WH over court decisions, Trump can enforce his rules despite constant constitutional crisis.

I think its unlikely that Trump goes this path and win, but I think that changes are hihg he might try (P=0.5) and there is real change that he may succeed for some time (P=0.2). When some terrorist attack or other crisis happens, Americans provide more support to their president than he deserves.

Hitler was Hitler since the very beginning. Jews, Lebensraum, arian race... all is in a book he published in 1925.

And Trump/Putin are not profiling people by their race all the time.

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