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Comment by Aloha | Hacker News Reader

One of my friends nicknamed Whole Foods as "Whole Paycheck" - its apt.

I was absolutely aghast at the prices at whole foods the first time I went in. 6 dollars for a gallon of milk, for example. I love the selection of Whole Foods - I don't like the price however enough to shop there. When I need something you'd typically find at the "organic" food store, I'm much more likely to go find a local co-op type place, which while not much cheaper, leaves me feeling a little better about myself when I'm done shopping.

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It might be where I live, but the sticker shock of Whole Foods just seemed like a veneer for me (things I don't buy)--although, it's probably just how I shop. The big thing I noticed was the natural, but not organic items were way cheaper at Whole Foods than the grocery store. Things like cage-free eggs, basic peanut butter (just peanuts and salt), or almond milk. The organic things, prepared food, soaps and stuff were all ludicrously priced. Co-ops, farmers market, or a place like Trader Joes is still cheaper, but not always available.

But I'm probably not the kind of person driving up their profits.

There's one in London, they always have fresh fish on display - more than they can possibly sell in a day, and if you go there before closing time, it's all still there. The cost of these vanity displays has got to be included in the margin.

I have never been to the US but is 6 dollars for a gallon of organic milk considered a lot? What do you normally pay for it?

That would be cheap for a gallon!

In San Francisco at Foods Co (Folsom & 14th), a gallon of milk is presently $2.49.

But it's not organic is it? I'm sure across the street at Rainbow Market the gal will be organic and much much more than $6, but hey I dislike milk so it's just a rough guess :P

Besides, I've always been impressed by the symbolic beauty of the proximity of both stores, you couldn't get a better metaphor of how the city is changing.

True though Rainbow Grocery in fact predates Foods Co by quite a bit [source: drove by that spot regularly when Foods Co was an empty lot]. Farm-to-table food culture seems to have pretty cleanly transitioned its demographic from hippies to socially conscious technology workers.

Agreed -- Europe has all sorts of government-sanctioned price fixing. If the price of milk drops in France, the farmers starts to burn stuff and throw rocks.

However, in the US, agriculture subsidies are less transparent. But then again, in France, you get to pay high taxes AND pay higher prices.

The problem in France, from my perspective is that there is an obsession with 'saving farmers,' when many of them really ought to leave the market due to inefficiencies.

You see similar dynamics in Korea with rice import quotas -- high consumer prices for rice because rice farming has been a protected industry.

Henry Hazlit's "Economics in One Lesson" explains this idea pretty succinctly. Essentially "protecting" the special interest harms the general interest, but that harm isn't easily identified since your average consumer isn't protesting higher milk prices but farmers often violently or vocally protest lower milk prices.

> The problem in France, from my perspective is that there is an obsession with 'saving farmers,' when many of them really ought to leave the market due to inefficiencies.

Yeah and what's left then? Huge megafactories with no regard to animal welfare, and providing next to zero jobs to the rural job market?

No thanks, it's already bad enough here as it is, Europe doesn't have to go down the US route.

If the price of milk drops in France, the farmers starts to burn stuff and throw rocks.

A year ago, taxi drivers were assaulting Uber drivers/passengers for similar reasons. Apparently farmers do this too? Are large segments of French society just a bunch of thugs who will engage in violence against society if they are not given tribute?

Do the police not crack down and jail people, sending a message that this is not to be tolerated? Is this a situation like Berkeley 2017, or the American South around Jim Crow, where the rioters/terrorists are implicitly sanctioned by the government?

This situation sounds really surprising from an American perspective and I'm really curious what's going on.

> Apparently farmers do this too? Are large segments of French society just a bunch of thugs who will engage in violence against society if they are not given tribute?

Hehe, I'll cautiously take out the qualification of 'thugs' if you don't mind, but basically yes, French protesting culture is a little bit more inclined to engage in violence. Not all social groups do tho, classically, public transportation workers usually leave it to simply freezing their infrastructure. Farmers don't always engage in violence, they sometimes opt for allegories such as dumping truckloads of cattle feces in front of administrative buildings. The legend says that the most hardcore ones are the 'Syndicat du livre'.

Empirical evidence seems to suggest that protests with a little bit of action get better media coverage than polite marchs with signs.

> Do the police not crack down and jail people, sending a message that this is not to be tolerated? Is this a situation like Berkeley 2017, or the American South around Jim Crow, where the rioters/terrorists are implicitly sanctioned by the government?

There's actually a branch of law enforcement named CRSs dedicated at this, they do make arrests sometimes, but seldomly as they usually favor the baton usage, which is an art they are very well known for.

Generally speaking, each protest is a war of opinion involving 3 participants: the government, the protesters, and the rest of the population. The latter is key as the way its sympathy swings usually designates the winner. It's usually an equation including the level of justification claimed by the protesters, how proportionate the law enforcement usage of force was, and of course the level of violence used by the protesters. e.g: - Too violent a crackdown makes the government look bad - Destructions of public infrastructures, or vicious display of violence for the other side. Infiltration with unidentifiable agent provocateurs is typical.

Terrorism as performance art, successfully gaining the sympathies of the population (provided it isn't too extreme) and driving the government to give the terrorists what they want?

This is the kind of thing I'd expect in Yemen or Somalia, not western Europe.

I think I'm shocked mainly because I never viewed the cultural differences between the US and Europe as being this large. Admittedly I've only been to France once; I suspect in the UK or Netherlands (places I'm more familiar with) attitudes would be a lot closer to US.

> Terrorism as performance art, successfully gaining the sympathies of the population (provided it isn't too extreme) and driving the government to give the terrorists what they want?

While the term 'terrorist' seems a bit connoted to me, there is indeed a sort of bargain/blackmail dynamic in most protests and funnily the french population routinely describes itself 'hostage' when the situation leads to disturbance of public services or infrastructures.

> This is the kind of thing I'd expect in Yemen or Somalia, not western Europe.

Right, peaceful protesting in countries at war is probably not too frequent. Although in the case of Somalia, protests must be kind of interesting since there is essentially no government.

>I suspect in the UK or Netherlands (places I'm more familiar with) attitudes would be a lot closer to US.

Absolutely, for tons of cultural and social reasons. Although I observe that all the countries you listed did at times have violent rioting as well.

According to the dictionary, terrorists are people who engage in premeditated violence to achieve political ends.

I know that the media doesn't usually use the term to describe left wing white people [1], but I prefer to use the same term regardless of the ideology or ethnicity of the terrorist.

[1] My favorite euphemism comes from TechCrunch: "illegal armed groups". https://techcrunch.com/2016/03/24/ubers-colombian-speed-bump...

> According to the dictionary, terrorists are people who engage in premeditated violence to achieve political ends.

Eh, good dictionaries usually have more than just a literal section for definitions, something that covers the connotative meaning and it can actually be useful sometimes :P

I'm aware that "terrorist" often connotes "islamic terrorist". I'm deliberately pushing against this connotation - I don't think white people should get a pass when they engage in similar actions.

I think I see your point more clearly now. It's probably a matter of interpretation as the connotation I had in mind wasn't the one your proposed, but the idea we tend to imagine any form of terrorism as exercising violence on innocent humans usually called victims. In this particular case, I was thinking it didn't legitimate appropriate use of the term since we are essentially talking burnt cars and beaten up cops.

Terrorism as performance art...

Is it ever anything else? Even so, it's stretching a bit to call these protests "terrorism".

I was proud of USA, when I was working overseas in late 2000, and all my friends were expecting riots to break out over the close election, and none ever did...

The last thing you want as a government is food riots so local farmers that produce enough food is probably a good thing.

Uh, your friend did not invent that nickname. It has been around for more than a decade and is used commonly including in media articles about Whole Foods.

I'm pretty sure I've seen the phrase "Whole Paycheck" in a TV show as a sort of "dad joke" to encourage the viewer to despise the lame character who used it.

I've heard the whole paycheck thing before.

I used to shop at Whole Foods when I wanted junk food. Of any store they usually have the best selection. I'd rather shop at Mariano's though. Better price and better produce.

Was in Whole Foods today, a gallon of non-organic milk is only $3.49. Here is a photo:

http://i.imgur.com/Kq7Xa4G.jpg

Organic milk was $6.49.

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