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Comment by BrailleHunting | Hacker News Reader

In the US, education, military and other budgets are seen as sacred cows as proxy signals for the emotional investment in their missions, such that insisting on service value for budget outlay is viewed as "social treason."

The US needs to do more of what Robert Reich ("Inequality for All"), Michael Moore ("Where to Invade Next?"), Bernie Sanders and Plato suggest: copy what works from elsewhere in the world (which others often copied from elsewhere including the US in the past), strengthen unions and get people more engaged in all levels of politics. (The US isn't a special snowflake, policy prescriptions can be tried and customized for commonwealth utility. But first, get money out of politics.)

"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -Plato

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I don't quite understand how you jump from "sacred cow / cannot be cut" to "insisting on service value is viewed as treason".

I'm firmly in the camp that wouldn't cut education, but does consider the state of the system somewhat prolematic. Those two opinions aren't in conflict.

But, having experienced both the US and the German school systems, they were ultimately pretty similar: put 20-something children in a room with a teacher (where variability seems to be extremely high everywhere). Do calculus for 45min, repeat. Even though outcomes are quite similar as measured by PISA, there is a lot around the margins even these countries could learn from each other: extracurricular are virtually nonexistent in Germany and added so much, at least to my experience. OTOH I felt US high schools tended to be too large.

> I'm firmly in the camp that wouldn't cut education, but does consider the state of the system somewhat prolematic. Those two opinions aren't in conflict.

Aren't they?

Suppose it actually costs a specific, much lower than we are currently paying amount to fund a decent education. Spending more than that doesn't materially improve outcomes, but if you allocate more money than that, schools will dutifully find a way to spend it anyway.

What solution to this problem do you imagine exists, separate from reducing funding to that level from the eight-times-that-much or so level that we currently pay?

The DOD's budget is much more of a sacred cow than the Dept of Education's, Lockheed Martin is much better at lobbying than Pearsons. Plus, entrenched interests like CoreCivic are actively lobbying against effective education as it creates a cash cow down the line for them.

> The DOD's budget is much more of a sacred cow than the Dept of Education's

Well, the Department of Defense is an actual constitutional branch of the executive, whereas there is nothing whatsoever in the Constitution which grants the United States authority over the education policies of the several states.

"copy what works from elsewhere in the world"

Is it working elsewhere in the world though? The graphs in the article that are international show all the other countries experiencing similar problems, just possibly slower. Are there any countries where the nominally expected result of things actually getting cheaper and easier over time are obtained? Given the sorts of things we're discussing, something like a mandatory 35-hour-work day in France or something is still just fiddling around the edges of what "should" be happening.

Are there any countries where the nominally expected result of things actually getting cheaper and easier over time are obtained?

Yes.

Japan, Mexico, Chile, Poland, Hungary, Korea, Thailand.

Right, but you have to copy all of what works, or you just inherit the old problems.

For example, Europe has free or ultracheap or "you get paid for it" college. Great. But what's the catch?

Extremely spartan colleges, extremely strict standards to get in and stay, much less social pressure to go college, much more viable career alternatives.

Is the US ready to import the European college model with those tradeoffs? To have "universally free" college while also abandoning the "college for everyone" part? And to also give up the athletic programs and other nice-looking fluff?

> Is the US ready to import the European college model with those tradeoffs? To have "universally free" college while also abandoning the "college for everyone" part? And to also give up the athletic programs and other nice-looking fluff?

It seems like it would be worth offering that and see who takes it. Especially if it's possible to make the image of the free school with the high standards be as the prestigious one with the high quality graduates.

You don't get the effects unless the whole system shifts; you can't do it as an opt-in thing. There are schools that offer more spartan accommodations, but as long as the money and incentives are there, there's no reason to stop charging as much as the others.

"copy what works from elsewhere in the world"

Willing to adopt those places population trends and immigration laws?

Plainly the elites of America are not willing to accept the population trends and immigration laws of the successful nations negotiating the cost disease. You can see that in how they celebrated the power grab in Washington.

Copying the immigration policy of Hungary, Japan, Korea, and Poland is easy if you want all the people of your nation to prosper. If your elite is more interested in keeping the people down so they can stay up, you get a different policy.

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