The top international cities for software engineers | Hacker News Reader

The top international cities for software engineers

techbeacon.com

87 pointsohjeez51 comments

I live and work in Bristol in the UK, would really recommend it. Such a vibrant tech scene here plus lots of established companies as well as newer larger ones opening offices (JustEat for example).

The city itself has a-lot going on (not all tech focused too) and is surrounded by countryside. Loads of nearby places to visit too such as Bath or Frome

Also has great transport links to the rest of the UK plus has its own airport

Some tech focused events/groups - Bristol JS -> www.meetup.com/BristolJS/ - techspark -> techspark.co

I live and work in London as a developer with about 2 years work experience, and I do feel the pull of moving somewhere else like Bristol. Hell of a lot cheaper than London and seems to have quite high living standards. I have a feeling its going to get more expensive as more and more people escape unaffordable London.

Wages are good and rent and stuff is not too unaffordable just yet! that being said houses prices are going up and up

Regarding the headline: why do Americans say "international" when they actually mean "not American"?

Because there's no commonly used word in English to represent "not American"?

UPD: there is

Then you'll run into the new problem, that in context of kinda-international HN it will sound a bit off.

The common English word "foreign" has that meaning and is perfectly well available in American English. But it seems like Americans think it's rude or insensitive to say "foreign" and say "international" (whose primary meaning is different) instead. I am interested, what's going on?

As a citizen of the US and native English speaker, I would say the connotations differ.

"International" - similarity to US / Western political systems and values, but not in the geographic boundaries of the US

"Foreign" - different from / opposed to (depending on how xenophobic whoever you're talking to is) US / Western political systems and values

So, in many ways mirroring the definitions. International is a thing in and of itself. Foreign is a relationship to something else.

I've just noticed that the list in question has multiple cities within the USA. So it is an international list, really.

I've always read that Singapore is NOT a great place for startups, and that software jobs don't pay well vs. the cost of living.

I would love to hear otherwise because I've always wanted to live and work there.

The rule of thumb is that engineering and startup talent pool is going to be severely restricted-people will revert to job security at larger corporations due to the depressed wages, especially for engineers.

This was actually a big reason why I turned down the opportunity to do a startup in Asia, there's very few unicorns and exits, and while living standards might be very good in places like Singapore, I felt like it would be hard to find a marketplace like the United States.

Most of my Asian Canadian friends have moved to Shanghai to pursue high tech work and hyping China and frankly I just didn't buy any of that ideological/racial bullshit. At the end of the day, North America still remains a very open and multicultural place (West Coast at least) that makes it easy to do business with a diverse group of people which is far more exciting (for me anyways) without having to travel.

Despite Trump, I feel like entering the US market is a far more exciting. I think the US economy will experience another major surge while Russia slowly goes into bankruptcy (again) and China implodes under it's debt/sociopolitical unrest that follows.

I'm doubling down on North America over China & Asia-providing jobs in Canada and United States with the expectation that I will see yuge returns.

China is in a totally different league though. There's nothing else like it in the world today. Completely understandable that not everyone can or want to go there (especially since there are also many downsides), but you can't take that away from them.

It isn't. I lived the for three years. A series of hiring managers who were fairly clueless about software hiring software developers & poor offered salaries made me leave in the end.

That environment obviously doesn't attract great talent, so unless the quality of your software isn't important, it will be a poor place to found or move a startup to.

The weather and food are amazing though.

the digital nomads can work remotely, so some of them just do their work in Singapore while their employers are not there. It's true that the pay there wasn't that great for (I worked there 14 years ago), but the cost of living is on the low end if you live outside the central area.

Uhm, I think you're overthinking it. There's million other challenges and reasons why you might not like Singapore (or another similar city). If you can and want to go you should go.

I like Singapore very much! I think it is a very livable city in a fascinating region. They have a straightforward visa process for skilled foreign workers, and a path to permanent residency.

But I'm not interested in taking a ~50% pay cut to move there from NYC when the cost of living is not that much different.

Pay is such a variable thing though. I mean, just being able to move, dealing with everything and ending up liking it long term is such a statistical anomaly that it seems silly to generalize pay (even though there might not necessarily be a correlation between the two). I would at least look into things like working for a US company in Singapore or consulting/freelancing (since the taxes are low?). Often things look quite different on paper than in reality (especially on an individual level).

It is a London of Asia. You can get around but it is not that great.

Interesting to see South Africa at the top of the purchasing power list. I received a job offer from Amazon in Cape Town (where AWS originated), but I turned it down. Your money did go very far there. Sadly, I could not accept the job for multiple reasons, but I do think about my decision constantly. I really loved Cape Town.

One aspects which made me not regret my decision so much is that I would have gotten paid in rand, which was been greatly devalued since my offer, causing me to lose money in terms of USD.

The crime rates and the sociopolitical climate should be taken into account as well. I think you made a good decision.

I did get used to being always vigilant. The beautiful homes surrounded by high walls and electric fencing. I've been playing the lotto recently so that I can quit my job and make it to Cape Town by March to compete in the Cape Argus.

>Hamilton, Canada

What the fuck?

https://hamilton.craigslist.ca/search/sof

Three jobs posted in the last month.

Realistically there are only 3 cities with a vibrant job market in IT in Canada. I would think that is the most important consideration when trying to list "top" cities. If you're not earning money, who cares how cheap the big macs are.

I'm not familiar with other countries, but I expect most of the other cities on this list have the same problem.

Can you expand on that?

I don't know too much about Canada, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamilton,_Ontario indicates that it at least sanity checks.

Was primarily a steel industry town that has collapsed in the 90s. Hamilton has a high unemployment rate and high crime rate compared to other Canadian cities.

However because of very affordable housing a lot of young professionals have started to move back and revitalize the city.

Many people still associate Hamilton with drugs crime and poverty.

Thank you for the clarification!

As someone from Waterloo, I just feel a bit insulted :P

In terms kind of analogous to the Bay Area, Toronto is like SF, and Kitchener-Waterloo is like Palo Alto. Hamilton feels more like parts of the East Bay.

Funny -- but when I drive up to Niagra falls from TO, I do see SITA (now google) Seagate, CA, VMWare and a bunch of other enterprise s/w companies in Hamilton. Either that or they are buying up ad space on buildings close to QEW.

Shanghai and Taipei are at the top of my personal list for when I'm looking for another job, so I'm excited to see them mentioned on some of the lists being used.

Are there any developers currently working in those areas who could share advice or experience? For context, I'm a white American who can speak conversationally in Mandarin and has some experience living in tier 2 cities.

Are you worried about air quality? Seems to be a deal breaker (due to adverse health consequences).

What about quality of life for "single" people? IN terms of activities etc. It is a huge factor for young people.

Yeah, this is actually an overlooked variable which is significant.

Millenials are't getting married and having kids like previous generation. Lot of professionals living by themselves.

I thought hard about how to fix this social isolation plague that is especially bad in city core. Especially for people who are on the autism spectrum disorder, ptsd, add and severe social anxiety.

I don't see any solution. This is the outcome of our free market capitalism experiment. It explains why communal and group orientated cultures suffer under the weight of isolation and work stress. South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, China all suffer from high rate of suicides probably in that order.

I often wonder if this capitalist system that structurally oppresses a large chunk of the population with our things, wants, race to obtain scarce goods, was purposefully installed to keep people in-line.

Take a look around next time you are packed into a tiny Skytrain box. Everyone is a slave to this tiny screen in their hands. A lot of those people probably live by themselves and not talk to anyone at work or outside. They wear fancy clothes or cars or new condo but these are ephemeral they add diminishing returns to the quality of our life which is tied to human connections.

We've replaced humane aspects of our society with things and I feel like none of the cities they listed in that article really is a good fit for "human quality of life"

Join a board game group, join a martial arts class. You can create your own community. If you feel that your disabilities hold you back from that, then try to find a similar group of people in an even more relaxed and safe setting.

No one is going to give you the life you want. You have to make it for yourself. Trust me, I wish it was easy too, but my life has improved a lot since I've started taking an active role.

You look at it as a problem and think we're broken, but I quite enjoy being alone. I cannot imagine I'm alone in that opinion either. I guess I just don't see the problem with wanted to live alone and have personal hobbies that don't require group involvement.

I enjoy solitude too, in fact I require it in large, prolonged time periods or I go crazy. Socialising is something I like to keep to short, controlled doses.

Many people (I'd wager most) are not this way though. Loneliness and solitude are two different things. We are not broken when we are alone for long periods, but most others are.

Most "real" cities, lively cities, are pretty great for that. From the list at the bottom, I'd pick out Berlin, New York, and London.

Living in London right now, I think I prefer New York and will move back there for my next job. London's maybe a little more balanced and cleaner and nicer but there's a sort of "sleepwalking" feel to the place which extends even beyond the weather. And they aren't getting any less insular with the likes of Brexit, and my salary in international terms (e.g. plane tickets) has plummeted... That said, I have enjoyed my time here and I don't regret it.

Also, you know how they say European public transport is so good? Hahahahaha - Southern is about as bad as Amtrak :b

The pace of New York City is pretty much unique, at least in the West. (Somewhere like Hong Kong is different enough that I wouldn't try to compare.) London certainly feels like a slower pace, which can be good or bad depending upon your perspective.

Cram into a shoebox apartment in SF with a bunch of roommates and live it up! Young single people can get more creative than couples/families with finding housing, which makes the bay area more appealing as an option.

Meh, I'll never understand how people can do this outside of financial need. As soon as I graduated college I got my own apartment (in NYC). Definitely worth the money.

I guess it depends what sort of person you are. I always enjoyed having roommates, and would never want to live alone. I'm in my mid-30s and if I wasn't married I'd probably still live with roommates.

Imagine yourself stuck in the an apartment with a lease with 3 people you hate most. That's the worst case scenario.

Moving to Aarhus, Denmark later this year from Raleigh, NC. Primarily because my girlfriend got a job there and wishes to stay in Europe (she is EU national). But, she and many of my European friends have been convincing me that quality of life is so much better over there(subjectively) inspite of a deep cut in my earnings. I do care about the highest quality of food, sensible political climate, and flexibility to travel more. So far Denmark seems like a good choice to me. Anybody have relatable experiences or comments?

Was in Aarhus over the summer. Thousands of bikes. People leave them unlocked outside. Seaside. Forests. An amazing food scene. Canals. A world class university. Happy people everywhere.

Thanks! It helps to hear it from fellow HNer. Do you have an idea about the tech scene over there? I'm having a hard time finding good tech jobs that are relevant for me there :-(

Chiang Mai has been some how sponsored by many, but believe me it is not interesting at all. The air is really polluted all year around (worst in feb and march), and the so called "community" to me does not exists. It is just a cheap place to live, but at almost the same expenses you can live south of Thailand, seaside, which at least is less polluted.

As someone who visited recently, socially it also seemed fairly conservative (albeit in the friendly Thai way).

If I ever get to work 100% remote I'd probably check Nomadlist.com

No offense to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, but I need more arguments before I come visit :)

If you are truly nomadic, why wouldn't you visit for a bit to see for yourself?

What type of visa would you apply for if you are self employed. For example if I want to move to Russia what type of visa would I need to be there 1 year working remotely for American companies.

You can always ask on Expatriates Stack Exchange but I assume it wouldn't be easy. If you plan to work you're usually assumed to work for a local company.

You could probably pull it applying for a business visa and then registering as an enterpreneur (ИП) - but you should definitely ask for a qualified opinion.

"Cities with the fastest Internet speeds number 1: Bordeaux, France" This is a joke!

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