Why many Indian politicians have a criminal record
economist.com
economist.com
These are just two example in last week from 1 south Indian state caught on camera (Because Local media would not cover since pretty much media in state supports ruling party):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOueUSVSuYk [1]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hG2fqW-tcM [2]
Very rarely criminality of Indian politicians comes out because Media do not want to cover it. These showed up because someone could record. But in both cases, elected representatives and their goons are already out of trouble.
India is a land of lawlessness and that's a reality.
[1]A journalist being beaten by local representatives brother because he wrote on their corruption.
[2]Goons of local representative beating a women (1 eyed mind you) because she didn't agree for their illegal construction in front of her house.
> India is a land of lawlessness and that's a reality.
It's a little more subtle : well connected people to whatever they want and get away with no consequences. People who dare to oppose these powerful people discover the true meaning of hell. It's true practically everywhere in the world including the US.
IMO for all the shit that social networks receive (for good reasons), one of the side effects is that it's a lot easier to share such gross violations of law an example of which are the above videos. In a way social networks give people power.
Case in point: a few neighbors had a shitbird stealing milk bottles delivered to our porches. The police obviously aren't sending in the detectives for 4-5 $2 bottles a week. But we captured the guy in camera, did a social media assault that attracted the news. A city fireman saw the guy on TV, recognized him from another petty theft, and called his cop friend who found the guy.
That's what social media does for individual or small group problems.
If you have a problem with a building project or city action, social media will attract sympathetic comments and crazy people. To get action, you need to round up people and show up at events and hearings.
I've helped people out fighting powerful interests.l at a local level. They always fight back, but in modern America you don't have people showing up to rape your wife or beat you. At the end of the day, powerful people need money, and its very possible to create the perception of risk that will slow down the funding stream. That tends to solve David v. Goliath issues.
It can be true in the US, but it definitely is not the norm. This statement rings false. For all the problems the US has, yes including corruption in some places, it is almost entirely unique in its freedom of speech and its allowance for political opposition without fear of retribution as a modus operandi.
Are we talking of the country of COINTELPRO, that killed civil rights activists, or obliterated unions and the US socialist party by force and shady tactics? it's like, you can say what you want, as long as it has zero consequences -- otherwise, prepare to meet some serious shit.
Because when a government really destroys a group they let huge swaths of their own employees join that group.
Plus, you are in a country where you can go to war to satisfy your friends benefit. Lie blatantly about the motives. Spend billions of dollars for it in a country in massive debt. Get caught doing so. Yet ignore international instutiions, go kill thousands of people anyway and get away with it.
You are in a country bailing the banks that ruined themself.
You are in a country where it's legal to snatch somebody without a trial. Where you can get in secret prisons and be tortured. All that justified by events that killed less people than the flu.
Where massive surveillance is allowed by politicians for security, yet they ban all attempt of transparency on their own actions.
The only difference with India is that they are better at it :
- they don't make it obvious and chocking enough so that it leads to a strong reaction
- they use all the tricks in the book to divert attention
But in the end, the US is so corrupted it could be a case study for future historians.
France is pretty much the same, mind you. We have just less guns and more smug.
>Plus, you are in a country where you can go to war to satisfy your friends benefit.
India does not have financial muscle to start a war but Indian government starts projects to help friends all the time.
> You are in a country bailing the banks that ruined themself.
Almost all major Indian banks are owned by state heavily mismanaged and completely inefficient. They run as jobs program and are every year bailed out using taxpayer money.
>You are in a country where it's legal to snatch somebody without a trial. Where you can get in secret prisons and be tortured. All that justified by events that killed less people than the flu.
Indian government can put you in jail for years without trial. Even for a high profile celebrity case takes on an average 10 years to conclude.
>Where massive surveillance is allowed by politicians for security, yet they ban all attempt of transparency on their own actions.
There is no privacy in India. If the cop asks you to undress you better do.
This is true, but it benefits the already wealthy a hell of a lot more.
Elon Musk is one man with good intentions in a sea of obscenely wealthy, self-serving plutocrats. The bad far outweighs the good.
At the very least if you are going to allow financial lobbying, you need to put a hard cap on the amounts, and the cap should be low. Very low.
This is a common misconception of Americans and is blatantly untrue. America is absolutely not the only free country in the world and, in some areas, it is less free.
Take press freedom, for instance: the US currently ranks 41st:
There are plenty of other fully democratic countries in the world, where freedom of speech is accepted, encouraged, and enshrined in well-respected laws.
You can't seriously believe this?
People can believe some astonishing things; without making those things true.
> well connected people to whatever
> they want and get away with no
> consequences
> It's true practically everywhere
> in the world
The press, the judiciary, the police, and the civil service are strong institutions. Reading up on "Plebgate" will give you a feel for the truly pedestrian nature of power abuse in the UK, and what happens when the police go rogue.
> Millionaires fly without
> even seeing border security
If you're merely pointing out that it's possible to receive much speedier service with money, then yes, there are a wealth of commercially available options operated by airports, private and public alike. That's hardly evidence of corruption.
Scandinavia is the poster child for ethics, and from what I know I would say rightly so, but it's not representative of Western Europe as a whole.
Your inclusion of Sarkozy surprises me. Googling for Sarkozy and mafia is bringing me a bunch of antisemitic sites and a site called info-resistance — do you have any reliable sources?
So there's a long history of shady ties at the very top of the French institution, pretty often in the form of what was deemed as a "necessary evil", but corruption nonetheless. That's pretty much summarizes the spirit of the French Fifth Republic, anyway: "we go to do what we got to do, and the public wouldn't understand".
You can get shot for simply brushing some up jumped real estate dealer's car in the capital city - a friend's colleague had to learn the hard way.
Jason Jones from the Daily Show years ago did a piece about not "fake news" in India but "paid news" for politicians, pretty interesting:
* Video: http://www.cc.com/video-clips/mrx7ec/the-daily-show-with-jon...
* Reality check: https://www.quora.com/How-accurate-was-The-Daily-Shows-expos...
In France the elite is incredibly good at it. The best example of this is Charles Pasqua. He has been linked to many, many, manyyyyyyyy shady cases, but every time found innocent : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Pasqua
What's coming now is worst. The old generation was trying to cover their track. The new one doesn't even bother. They are exposed, play a little TV game, and then carry on like nothing happened. It works so why not ?
1. Politicians, by default, are corrupt. They are also not to be trifled with - if I accidentally bump into a small-time politician's car at a signal, I'm hightailing it out of there lest I get beaten up.
2. If I get into trouble (especially with a politician or a well-connected person), the last person I'll turn to for help are the cops.
It isn't a problem that affects a single party, both the ruling BJP and the Congress have the same issues. The problem with BJP being our Dear Leader being rather illiterate and surrounded by "Yes Men". The man behind the demonetization was found out to be an individual with a PhD in Yoga. And of course, there's 2002.
The Congress being the Congress mired itself with a series of scams in it's second term, and thus began what Bannon calls the "start of the right-wing revolt".
A personal anecdote about the Congress: A cousin of mine once decided to run for the Lok Sabha but quickly changed his mind because he found out the Congress guy was bribing the poor people (of which there were a lot in his village) with bottles of Johnie-Walker from the past two elections. And ofcourse, it was easy for the said Congress individual to do so because the then Chief Minister was close to Ponty Chadha, the liquor baron with a monopoly in the state of Punjab, for which the CM went to Dubai unannounced [1].
You could write a multi-volume encyclopedia on the tales of the corrupt Indian Politician.
Not saying that people don't try, and there is that odd politician who does come only from money. By and large most chief ministers victory can be explained not by money, but more by identity/group based politics.
This is pretty much also exactly the same to what happens in the US.
> How do you buy votes if
> the ballot is secret?
The answer is by distributing 2,000INR notes to people and transporting them to the polling station, relying on reciprocity and promising more to come if you get elected.
People in India will take money if you give it to them, but they will vote on identity only. This is because there is no reciprocity - once the voting is done the politicians have no incentive to pay them again and they don't. The only reciprocity that exists, if at all, is along identity and everyone gets it.
Take a look at any CM in any state of India - their win is largely explained by identity and not money. The current PM who was two time CM of a state, doesnt even have a house to his name.
> People in India will take money
> if you give it to them, but they
> will vote on identity only
> This is because there is no reciprocity
Buying votes happens mostly in slums and other non-affluent areas. These are the places where the concept of privacy hasn't yet formed and everybody knows what everybody else is doing. Also, a politician is not expected to work for them his whole term. It is natural to see your local representative only during the times of election. So politicians have the two key ingredients to enforce an implicit contract. But the biggest weapon these politicians have is intimidation. Since it's not hard to mostly figure out the faction that refused to vote for the money they took, they can be persecuted and intimidated.
Of course there's no official source to cite this. My driver is very chatty and quite insightful about the politics in India.
As an Indian I think Criminality of Indian Politicians is a non issue. Very few of the politicians are actual hard criminals. Most face charges that anyone in important position is likely to face.
Nearly all my politician friends have been in jail and have criminal records but I can vouch they are pretty good people.
India does not uniform laws and far too many laws to deal with the exactly same crime.
Examples: 1. One of my friend has been fighting in court for last 7 years over a case registered on him by his political opponent. My friend called him "asshole". However as per Indian law it is a crime to abuse a person if the person belongs to specific caste (SC/ST) not just that, the police are required to register the case even if they think the charges are frivolous or unsubstantiated. This gentleman has been visiting court every few months. The charges will be dropped some day as a political bargaining chip.
2. I barely escaped having a criminal record when I participated in a political movement. The cops basically filed any random charges against the protestors including molestation, attempt to murder and what not. I escaped because I had a fake ID card with fake name on it.
3. A lot of civil offenses are "crimes" in India.
For example you are CEO of a publishing company that publishes a scholarly book on world mythologies. Some person files a complain saying you (CEO) has hurt the sentiments of public which is a criminal offense. India Ebay CEO was arrested as a criminal becomes someone sold a CD on the website that had porn clip in it !
4. Courts that don't work.
Indian courts spend time only on cases that make the judges popular. Such as cases that involve celebrities or cricket. That is why conviction rates are next to nothing. One Indian celebrity recently got acquited from tow major crimes after around 12 years of fight.
5. Drinking wine or beer might be a crime in some states and in one state they want to give capital punishment for the same.
6. Eating beef might be a criminal offense.
Myneta.info looks like it is maintained by a group called The Association for Democratic Reforms (http://adrindia.org/about-adr/who-we-are), and based on affidavits submitted by the candidates themselves (apparently a Supreme Court declaration that makes it mandatory). This means the actual number of cases could be different from those declared.
People typically vote with their feet. If you have any doubts about which society treats its citizens better, just look at how many Indians are clamoring to get out of India and immigrate to USA/Europe and the numbers of Americans/Europeans wanting to immigrate to India.
In fewer words - hyper-polarization. Once you win republican or democratic primary, you are guaranteed to win 45% of the vote.
I am sure a lot of people are motivated by the much more modern western culture as well but I can assure you that money is the motivation for the majority, as condescending as that sounds.
When I did Google Summer of Code in my freshman year in college I got paid $5500 for three months' work, which when converted to INR was more than my father was making in a whole year working fulltime.
Rs 1 million (ballpark figure) is considered to be a good salary for an average software engineer in India. By PPP conversion this is only equivalent to $57k, which is less than half of what some freshers make in the Bay Area or NYC.
Other factors which contribute to holding back the country are: illiteracy, population explosion, blind faith, diversity used against the masses to incite hate and so on.
Nothing in the article backs up this statement. I hope when the author publishes his book, somebody will point out why.
I believe caste and identity politics play a huge role in such elections. Thefts and crimes are ignored precisely because people think that XYZ crook(from their caste/community) has the courage to stand up to authority and will represent them properly.
Different communities promote up their own representatives and as the elections becomes dirtier, in the end only crooks from various communities stand up.
Kind of similar to how capitalism forces merchants to sacrifice most skills not relevant to 'reducing cost/making money', Indian politics does this to our MPs/constituencies. Money and muscle power become a pre-requisite for being considered as a possible electoral candidate.
Then again, the advent of social media and the internet has started changing things (I don't have stats to prove this though). Crimes committed by MPs (or their families) are being highlighted throughout the country and the guilty are being shamed. I use the word shamed because I am not too sure what happens once the media spotlight moves somewhere else. Possibly, they walk free...
Once criminal organizations get powerful enough they can start doing extensive image management and PR, as well as building elaborate headquarters complete with fancy architecture, columns, etc.
Governments are simply the most successful criminal organizations. We the people are continually fooled by the grandeur of the columns and the silly dignity of the titles.
We're also overly grateful for the gifts of patronage they dole out to keep us at bay such as welfare, medals, etc.
The more pomp and circumstance, the more ritual and solemnity, the bigger the racket. It should be no surprise that both candidates in the recent US election still have numerous FBI investigations into their business dealings, and the majority of Americans considered both to be highly unfit for office.
Our presidential motorcade is a sham... The vehicles are tanks made to look like limousines, yet we'd look down upon a foreign leader who paraded around in a tank.
All tyrants attract sycophants, and in our case they make up most of the political and media elite. The most humiliating display in our nation is the exceedingly rare occasion when a president condescends to sit for a one-on-one interview. The softball questions are spoken with a humility (and a reassurance that there certainly won't be any sort of tough follow-up question) that should make us all gag.
In the US, there is a steady stream of news stories about corrupt or otherwise undesirable situations elsewhere in the world.
I suspect that even with anonymous voting people's psychology will compel them to vote for the party who gives them a gifts.
So there's a line of clean constituencies from Mumbai to Kolkota? That 'isn't' should be an 'is'.
An Indian politician who brags about sexual assault and doesn't even deny video-taped evidence of the bragging .... would have no chance of being elected as Prime Minister. As we demonstrated in November, American voters have a much higher tolerance level when it comes to electing our president.
I'm sorry, but "pussy grabbing" is nothing compared to Narendra Modi's history.
Here is the thing - If you look at the past 5 Prime Ministers of India and compare them to the past 5 Presidents of the US, you will find that India more or less throws up much better candidates than the US for the top spot.
If Indian politicians had such a criminal record, this would be unlikely the case.
As to this article, The Economist is reviewing a book by a third-party. If the facts are correctly quoted from the book, the book's sources are correct and the item is newsworthy, I see no problem at all with such a book review.
There need be no racial motivation for pointing out institutional failings in any country. India is an important country in so many ways, and the readers of The Economist would surely want to know about politics there.
And why do you think The Economist is generally racist? Because they don't shy away from criticizing shitty behavior just because the people doing it happen to be non-White? It's not exactly a phenomenon that's unique to India. Endemic political corruption on a local level are endemic to developing democracies around the world. Even the US had it at a certain stage of its development. Ties to organized crime were a defining characteristic of big city politics in the 19th century.
Unlike America, India's court are more accessible to each and everyone. Cases are filed liberally in the political process - in some ways this is reminiscent of our freedom struggle where going to jail was considered a right of passage, and rightfully so.
If you use this to assert that Indian politicians are criminals, you are basically using means at your disposal to assert your prejudice.
I think you should stop whatever you are doing and get appointed as a judge in the Supreme Court of India. Obviously you know so much more than what they know or have deduced about criminals in India, much less the PM.
If you think people can't see through such antics as you're playing, you are really deluded & grossly underestimate the general intelligence of humans!
And what's with the 'was'? Just because you claim someone "was" a mass murderer, you can absolve yourself when every known & serious inquiry against him proves otherwise? Please try to be objective & analytical. Look up facts. Just because you like things to be a certain way does not make it so. Try to understand the divisive politic people play, but their best hands couldn't prove what was false.
I meant it seriously - if anyone can prove that he is guilty, go and make your case. Stop being a keyboard warrior!!
If something he said was untrue or misleading, please cite facts or refute so we can be in on the joke.
However a quick skim of content seems to suggest that a significant amount of people do not have confidence in the impartiality of the investigations, and that it remains a controversial issue.
Generally, you would be right in assuming that. But in this case, Modi was in quite a vulnerable situation, when the primary opposition party (Congress) was in power in the central government at that time; they even had CBI (Central Bureau of Investigation) in their control, there were too many international parties out to dig up evidence and accuse him (which they did, sans evidence). But at the end, not one charge stood up. In other words, he was proven innocent multiple times against all odds. The Visa ban was also overturned without a whimper, in fact Modi & Obama became such good friends....
Supreme court of India gave clean chit to Modi [0]. second here context is Indian Politicians not current Indian govt.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Narendra-Modi-gets-...
Key operative word.
Surely you jest? No mention of Congress who have literally destroyed our country by their rampant corruption and being in power for so long that it is proving to be a gargantuan task to get back on our feet?