Romania is developing its own culture of protests
euronews.com
euronews.com
First of all, please look at Romania, look what we are doing and for what we are fighting and do a _replicate_ on your Country IIf your Gov does not respect your primary rights or you feel that your nation is going into the wrong direction.
(America, Poland and Hungary, can YOU hear us?)
Also, what is important, we, people from RO Street, fully support European Union. The most important Peace Project ever created. We Love EU. Please fight for EU, do not let anyone tear us apart. We must remain strong to our European culture and principles.
I do apologize if my message is too political with respect to HN nature.
We know that America is 1st. But, can we say... Romania 2nd?
Best regards!
It's going to be a long struggle but thankfully the groups most supportive of populism and therefore corruption are older (>50).
You realize both sides use this argument? It's not that either side is being lied to or paid; some people simply have different viewpoints on issues, as hard as that is to believe.
It's hard to see the difference from a distance, but as a general rule, always suspect the group that is in favor of the government. Even more if the protest is about investigating corruption.
Sorry for the nitpick but it's Gandhi.
On the flip side, this might be just the natural shift in people's political views as they get older. I mean, the same argument is made by liberals in the US, forgetting that people simply become more conservative as they are aging.
The leftist klepto mafia party PSD promised things to these people in exchange for their votes. They are screwing up those who work or at least try to make an honest living, those who contribute to the county's GDP and expect their taxpayer money buy infrastructure, hospitals, schools, kindergartens instead of lining politicians' pockets.
Life seems easy when you are young and educated but for old people it is hard to keep up with the pace of technology, even if they are educated. The abrupt transition to capitalism didn't help either. This is a common issue in many countries, not just ex-communist ones. Old people need a safety net and Romania has it broken.
I'm attacking the party that has more members with criminal records than all others combined. An organized criminal gang controls this praty. The president of the Chamber of Deputies who's also the president of this party already has a criminal record for election tampering and is currently under investigation for abuse of power. The president of the Senate is currently under investigation for perjury and aiding the felon. This is without even counting the many members of their parties who have been prosecuted and/or sent to jail.
They miss having things decided for them, they miss having a life long job (which only works because the government plans the economy), they miss news about how everything in Romania is well and getting better and how horrible things outside of Romania are.
But some things are the same. The ruling party (successors of the communist party) won on a message of "foreigners are trying to control Romania" and look at how many foreign sounding names in have in politics (including the current president who is an ethnic German).
What would be the software equivalent of this? disable half the buttons on a page? :P
Disabling half the buttons on a page is an active act of sabotage.
Peaceful protests for software engineers have the problem that in most software companies, if everyone used the age old "you're not allowed to strike" tactic of conspiring to call in sick, most likely the software would continue to work just fine, since everything is automated.
Of course the system would eventually break down, but likely after the employees lost their patience for the protest, by which point the company could have brought in replacements to keep the shop running.
Those who watched the U.S. elections closely in 2015 and 2016 already know the media had zero interest in covering real issues, and they would much rather do a one-day marathon about Trump calling someone a pussy. And now the same media blames the Russians or whoever that Trump is in power, even though they are the ones making him a TV star with their non-stop coverage of him.
This is sadly true. I saw one popular video being shared on facebook, targeting a more American audience, and they would only show violent videos from the protests (which have been overwhelmingly peaceful).
However, I have no idea what rational argument could persuade you otherwise, as there is surely AMPLE evidence out there of animosity between the two and a loathing which both sides have freely admitted to.
First, 'the media' is not a monolith, but an ideological marketplace, and treating it as a single entity is dangerously wrong. Fallacies of composition are unavoidable whenever we generalize, but that's precisely why we must be careful when we make generalizations lest we mislead ourselves into making decisions based on an over-simplistic model.
Second, we cannot know people's motivations. It's inarguably true that the largest media outlets do tend to support incumbent power elites (I'm not talking about political parties or figures here). However I claim that this is not only the result of a conscious decision to perpetuate the status quo but also an unintended outcome of the capitalist framework within which media companies operate.
Local news stations are supported by advertising, advertising demands the largest audience, and the largest audience gravitates to the most impactful news format presented with the greatest degree of (apparent) urgency. There are two main competing news formats (Eyewitness News and Action News) both of which emphasize the spectacular at the expense of the structural, and both driven by a need for speed in both acquisition and delivery, lest people vote with the remote. The talking heads that report the news aren't so much instructed to lie, as forced into a disregard for the truth by the constraints of the product they deliver.
That's one counter-intuitive reason that you often get better news temporarily in the wake of a severe tragedy; the generic format isn't adequate to address a truly drastic story, and once reporters abandon the format they tend to do a much better job...but once the tragedy is over, economic logic reasserts itself, and the news goes back to the information equivalent of unhealthy fast food.
the media had zero interest in covering real issues, and they would much rather do a one-day marathon about Trump calling someone a pussy
I'm going to nitpick a bit here. The public is not that interested in real issues because that part that watches a lot of TV is not so well-educated and not so thoughtful, and prefers infotainment that provides drama and conflict vs. dull analysis. Hillary Clinton's biggest weakness was not her penchant for secrecy and denial, but her lack of a Big Plan and her policy wonk personality. Looking at her actual agenda and leaving personalities out of it, a disinterested observer would have to agree that she was offering a combination of administrative competence and incrementalist reform - a 'safe pair of hands' candidate. Donald Trump's offering had a lot of bold initiatives (giant wall, tear up agreements, and other abrupt changes) and very little detail on the how-to side - a 'kick the bums out' candidate.
Now I loathe and despise Trump, but I can easily see why large numbers of people voted for him, because his candidacy was a hell of a lot more exciting. If Hillary was the rather anti-social mechanic promising to fix that annoying knock in your engine, Trump was the salesman offering you a great deal - the best deal, the deal you deserve - on a brand new car with metallic paint and go-faster stripes. Regardless of how I feel about him as a President, he has a masterful understanding of selling things, and it turns out you can sell ideas just as easily as hotel bookings or lifestyle accessories.
We can blame the media for amplifying his relatively shallow sales pitch, but the media goes where the eyeballs are. I love watching C-Span and hour-long charlie Rose interviews that focus on policy questions and structural issues, but the audience for that is microscopic compared to the audience that regularly tunes into Fox News or CNN. People choose to watch airheads like Lou Dobbs or Don Lemon and mostly ignore in-depth journalism. This might be better with better education and so forth, and I don't think there's a whole lot you can do about that beyond reiterating the value of public investment in education and the arts; a marketplace of ideas, like any other marketplace, is going to prioritize the lowest common denominator.
Having said that, I don't blame the media too much for focusing on Trump's talk of grabbing women by the pussy. That was sensationalist, but it also addresses a real issue which I think you're ignoring; if you're a woman in the USA, then you have probably had some experience of sexual harassment and that negatively impacts your life. That is every bit as much a real issue as the ecological impact of coal or the cost-benefit ratio of some policy or whatever. It's also easier to cover, because it's such a simple issue to understand and because it provokes powerful emotional reactions for very substantive reasons to do with personal liberty and safety.
I really don't think that if media outlets had spent October saying 'Let's study the structural dynamics of manufacturing employment and the long-term outlook for the tech sector...in other news, Donald Trump offended women again...now onto geopolitical strategy and the debate over a multipolar world vs US hegemony' that the public would have risen to the occasion and got in touch with its inner genius. The media offers a distorted and often misleading reflection of society, but ultimately it is a reflection rather than an origination, and the fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves.
The media was 80/20 against one candidate, if not higher
In Europe (well, at least in France), news outlets have spoken about it. Romania is part of the EU, nearer, and the EU warned Romania about backtracking on efforts against corruption so it is quite logical that we speak more about it than in the US (assuming that you're in the US).
Point is this is not the way to go on the long term. We were lucky this time but it's gonna fail soon. We need to educate people better in hope that they will cast their vote properly.
The president did trigger a referendum on this, but the ruling party jumped the gun and passed (and now revoked) this law before the referendum question was even finalized. The referendum will still go ahead.
Even if you phrase the question as "Do you want to decriminalize corruption?", or a more probable "Do you agree with softening the legislation toward combating corruption?" a significant amount of people will say yes, not because they think corruption is good, but rather they've been lead to believe that the National Anticorruption Directorate is biased toward PSD (the successor to the communist party).
(Small note, the two main networks saying this are Antena 3 (whose owner is in prison and would have benefited from this law) and Romania TV (whose owner is on the loose and on Europol's most wanted list).)
During the past 2 decades Romania has been neglecting education big time. Teachers had terrible salaries, corruption was present even in our highest ranked colleges and institutions. Education quality has been degrading throughout this entire time and we need to make that a priority.
Then there is also the psychological aspect of it. We need to make school and education look cool again. We need to use proper role-models for children, like the Americans use Silicon Valley stars to show how success looks like. Meanwhile every time I turn on the TV here I see high-profile millionaires, going to or out of prison, giving preaches about what do to in life and how to outsmart others. These are the popular figures presented by our media.
Mostly, in Romania, education was never cool, work was never cool, paying taxes was damn right stupid and making millions of $ illegally was regarded with admiration. If we can change that our future looks better already.
Two thumbs up.
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/may/19/graduation-revi...
You are now a lot of people in the streets, with a lot of power, the government backs off. Should you ask for more or stick to the original requests that are now satisfied?
The people continue to protest the current government because they showed themselves to be untrustworthy. They backed down right now under pressure but who says they won't give another executive order in the middle of the night when no one is looking ?
http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Speech_20170127_Raimondi_J...
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-drugs-law-idUSBREA1B...
"they won't give another executive order in the middle of the night when no one is looking ?"
It has become self evident to me that we need a Donald Trump so maybe our fellow Romanians get back into reality.
EDIT: P.S. The echr source talks about the problem but discussion have taken place. Also i it find a bit alarming that the case creation rate has increased so unpredictably. I quote "Firstly, with regard to Hungary and Romania, for which the number of cases increased by 95% and 108% respectively in 2016". What does this suggest? I remaind you that 2016 was a year in which Iohannis's technocratic government ruled
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceau%C8%99escu%27s_final_speec...
http://www.dreptonline.ro/legislatie/oug_13_2017_modificare_...
The most ridiculous adaptation I've seen so far.
The guy's name is German and it was originally spelled "Klaus Johannis". During the presidential election, he changed his last name's spelling to "Iohannis" to make it seem more Romanian, even though the German minority in Romania has always been held in high regard (yes, positive ethnic stereotypes do exist).
I guess the next step would be "Claudiu Ionescu" :-)
I want to remind you that when the "Colective" horror happened the government resigned (PSD) but when a similar incident happened in the USA the president or any government official didn't resign.
If you think that we are more advanced than the american democracy then you sir ignore certain facts.
source:http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/12/04/oakland...
I agree with you that the government doesn't have to necessarily resign but the fact that they were democratically elected doesn't give them the right to do anything they want. The people have the full right to voice their disagreement with the actions of the government, and I happen to agree with the demands and sentiment of the overall protests.
Unfortunately the Romanian people have been lagging (on average) when it comes to civic involvement, education, mutual trust, mutual respect etc., which lead to the election of the current populist government. There are signs that this is changing, slowly, and that makes me hopeful.
Since PSD was voted by so many people and is in the right, why isn't there any significant counter-protest?
If PSD would've governed by sticking to their political principles, their proposed agenda and within reason, there would've never been any protests. Sure, people would be upset because they have different political views, but you would've never seen 600k people on the streets.
Democracy is not a blank cheque and your argument of "they won fair and square" does not allow them to send us back into the dark ages ESPECIALLY for their own very specific interests.
If you think there's anything wrong with my logic above, then you're probably a lost case.
Other than the fact that they tried to decriminalize many corruption offenses triggering the largest protests since the fall of communism. As many people are saying: thieves shouldn't be let go just because they've been caught and gave everything back.
Moving on to important things. "It's a well known fact that Cotroceni protesters are mostly poor and retired old people and they went there because they received some incentives"
You seem to forget that the coalition PSD + ALDE won by a majority and that we live in a representative democracy not a direct democracy.
There were two order of magnitude more people protesting against PSD compared to those against the president. Also, the PSD party is notorious for using bribes during electoral campaigns, especially in the rural areas.
Also, while we're at it, how does winning the majority give any political party the right to do what the fuck they want? If you trusted me with the keys to your house to look after your dog while you're away, does that give me permission to steal your TV? Remember, you gave me those keys!
Oh, boy!
I hope you never get in a managerial position and while you are at it read the ordinance
http://www.dreptonline.ro/legislatie/oug_13_2017_modificare_...
If you find it hard to comprehend that it's out of order to take care of this law (which is selfish to the bone and only serves their own interest) before anything else you promised in your campaign I'm afraid there's not much to discuss here.
Stop promoting that ordinance please, you are outnumbered here.
1. All such protests, began as a response to some wrong action of the government. However the shills, e.g. "Sylphine", behave as if that action did not exist and say that the protests are instigated by political opponents, foreign corporations and so on, who want to overthrow the innocent government. It is true that the political opponents, e.g. the current Romanian president, always try to use such protests to gain advantages over the target of the protests. However, this has nothing to do with the cause of the protests. No politicians in Romania have enough influence to convince a really large number of people to protest just because they say so.
2. Another frequent lie is that from the message above, which attempts to present the two positions, of those that are pro & contra the government as being two equivalent positions. That is as if one would say that there are 2 equivalent theories, one claiming that 2+2=4 and the other claiming that 2+2=7, and that the truth must be somewhere between these 2 extreme theories.
This is a lie. The counter-protest gathered not even 200 times less people, all who were obviously old and poor. They were unable to explain logically why they protest. It was obvious that someone has scared them with lies, e.g. that the opponents of the government want to decrease their pensions or salaries. Before the government introduced the changes in the penal Code that started the protests, they increased slightly the pensions and the small salaries. They hoped that this will make everybody happy so nobody will protest when they will achieve their main purpose of modifying the penal Code.
While corrupt politicians are everywhere, including in the USA, I am not aware of any other case when they would have been so shameless as to give themselves the permission to steal from the public money, by law, as they tried to do in Romania.
The text of the changes to the penal Code is public, so there is no doubt about their content. It is not possible to argue that any member of the government that voted these changes did not break his/her oath, which said that he/she will observe the Constitution and the Laws and he/she will protect the rights of the citizens (which include the right of property over the public money, which must not be stolen by those hired to administrate it).
So the 2 positions are not equivalent, one is right beyond any reasonable doubt and the other is wrong beyond any reasonable doubt.
This is reflected in the numbers, it is much easier to fool a couple thousand people (counter-protesters) than to fool many hundred thousand people (genuine protesters).
Holy shit,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_bOtexFNXo
> a Bos indicus bull is released into a crowd of people and multiple human participants attempt to grab the large hump of the bull with both arms and hang on to it while the bull attempts to escape. Participants hold the hump for as long as possible, attempting to bring the bull to a stop. In some cases, participants must ride long enough to remove flags on the bull's horns.
I love learning about new sports like that. More:
* Zurkhaneh, weird workout in Iran https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTHvXX-Qicw
* Kabaddi, amazing game where you have to make the other fall :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSnP9z99I9M
http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21715686-why-indian-judge...
To the people, achieving the primary goal is like stopping the bleeding from a gunshot wound. It's the first step in preventing something worse from happening, but it's not the last step in the fight against corruption. The bullet is still inside.
Young, high tech, well-dressed, global 'hipsters' who live online versus older people, mostly rural, former communists, peasants or factory workers, who have no hope of adapting to the new incomprehensible tech world around them.
People from the first group work mostly at multinationals or are entrepreneurs/artists/etc while the second group live on state pensions or have administrative roles offered by the ruling political party - the modernised communists.
First group are people who've tasted freedom and are trying to live 'independent' lives, while the second group cannot imagine living without a strict social hierarchy, in which one must do what he's told - vestige of the communist system, in which everybody had his 'master'.
The second group has had numerical majority in the December elections - because of better mobilisation, so they elected the party who promised them higher pensions and other populist dreams..
We've seen this phenomenon play out in many countries already.
So far these protests have been peaceful - these young people know how to behave peacefully in crowds - after having enjoyed themselves at massive festivals and concerts that have invaded the post-communist Romania in the last decade or so.
Let's hope that they stay that way - there are some evil slogans being shouted on both sides, but so far the youth has had the upper hand, combined with the moral handicap of the second group - turns out not all of them want to save the criminals and corrupt oligarchs from prisons.
What's next ? The crowd won, the government withdrew the controversial ordinance, but how will they be able to continue business as usual now that they've accepted their own incompetence just one month after taking office ?
Will they do another stupid thing and have the crowds 'fix' it for them ? If this happens, then why not actually implement it in software and avoid massive mobilisation risking all kinds of crowd-related dangers ?
Unfortunately this is where Facebook falls short - it's good at creating massive crowds - but stops being useful once crowds are in place.
I think it's up to Romanians now to invent a new system of government, where the crowd can have a voice without filling the streets every week.
Representative democracy is unable to cope with the new technological realities so I think it's time to move on to the next level of governance.
Time to move the government into the smartphones - replace Facebook with 'Society OS' (or extend Facebook to include it).
My biggest hope is that the transition to this new society will be peaceful and devoid of violence.
No, it's young people against corruption. Nobody is protesting against old people benefits.
http://www.dreptonline.ro/legislatie/oug_13_2017_modificare_...