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Comment by Flimm | Hacker News Reader

If we're going to sink our time into the old copyleft vs permissive licenses debate, I wish we would be more precise with our words.

AGPL is an open source license, according to OSI, the only authority on what constitutes open source. https://opensource.org/licenses/AGPL-3.0

You say "open for everybody to use". Both open source licenses and free/libre licences guarantee that the software is open for use. You're actually talking about freedom to combine with closed source/proprietary software, not about end-users freedom to use the software.

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You're not contradicting the_mitsuhiko. They said "it's definitely not the definition of open source". You answered "AGPL is an open source license, according to OSI".

That is true, but "frog" is still definitely not the definition of "animal", even though a frog is an animal.

I don't think your interpretation of the_mitsuhiko's words does reflect what was meant. Because if it was, the comment of the_mitsuhiko as a whole wouldn't make sense.

This is an interesting example for the difference between "reading by the word" and "reading by the meaning" (there's not a good English word for this, but in Germany we call this "sinnentnehmendes Lesen".)

I believe the English-language term is "letter of the law" for literal interpretations and "spirit of the law" for interpretations based on what something is meant to do.

I read the_mitsuhiko's comment with the same interpretation as Doctor_Fegg, and, as a native English speaker, i believe that this is the natural interpretation.

I also believe it makes sense. Perhaps i can restate it. the_mitsuhiko made five assertions:

1. The AGPL is not just an updated GPL, but expands the scope of the GPL's 'infective' property considerably.

2. Some people are uncertain about what exactly the consequences of using AGPL'd software are.

3. Because of this uncertainty, there are companies which will not use AGPL'd software.

4. The AGPL is an open source license, but it is neither the only nor the most representative open source license.

5. Some people wish to license their software in a way which maximises the number of people who can use it. That means not using the AGPL, because of point 3.

A useful term to describe what it seems to me that the_mitsuhiko means is "noncentral example".

The red-eyed tree frog [1] is an animal, but it is a noncentral example of an animal, i.e., it is not the typical thing you think of when you think "animal". To the_mitsuhiko, the AGPL is a noncentral example of an open source license.

The term comes from the noncentral fallacy [2], which is about abusing noncentral examples.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agalychnis_callidryas

[2] http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_noncentral_fallacy_the_worst...

> You're actually talking about freedom to combine with closed source/proprietary software,

Or freedom to combine with software using any other non-copyleft, open source license.

As far as I know, AGPL is compatible with both Apache 2.0 as well as MIT/BSD permissive licenses.

Which non-copyleft OSI-approved license are you having difficulty combing with AGPL?

When is the last time you looked at the OSI approved license list? Of the most common licenses the EPL and CDDL licenses are incompatible with GPL (I suspect it's similar for the AGPL since it's a modified GPL license). When you look through the full list you will see a lot more. Basically read https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html#GPLIncompa... and see all the free software licenses that are incompatible with the GPL. Most of those are OSI approved.

> [...] of the most common licenses

Well, sure, but 10th- and 16th-most common (1% and <1%, respectively) isn't actually very common at all[0]. Which applies to the AGPL as well.

The potential for conflict between EPL and AGPL, or CDDL and AGPL, code in projects is tiny.

For that matter, the GPL was around first, and is the 2nd most popular license. Shouldn't the EPL and CDDL have been modified to be GPL compatible (the Apache Software Foundation managed to work this out with the FSF, over the Apache v2.0 and GPL v3.0 licenses, after all[1]).

[0] https://www.blackducksoftware.com/top-open-source-licenses

[1] http://www.informationweek.com/enterprise/apache-foundation-...

"Both open source licenses and free/libre licences guarantee that the software is open for use. You're actually talking about freedom to combine with closed source/proprietary software"

But that "to combine" is exactly "to use", especially if it is a software library.

What if the end user is a developer?

See my comment below about that.

The developer who wants to combine with closed source can contact us and work out a special deal. It's only fair. They want to be compensated for spending their time, then so do we.

Yes, but then don't talk about "freedom to use"... if something else must be done before that usage.

It isn't freedom to use unconditionally. It's freedom to use if you do same as we did for you.

If nobody uses a piece of software, its freedom is debatable.

I don't know of anyone using agpl'd code to build software people use.

You never heard of anybody using MongoDB?

Note that the official MongoDB C driver is Apache licensed, which is what most developers would make a derivative work from.

https://github.com/mongodb/mongo-c-driver/blob/master/COPYIN...

RethinkDB's drivers are Apache licensed.

FWIW that was part of the problem since that's a walking license violation go the AGPL by many interpretations. It's just that Mingo/Rethink violate their own license there. However any other client? Unclear.

  [they] violate their own license

Careful with the word "violate": as a copyright holder, you cannot violate your own license. The copyright holder has intrinsic rights; licenses are permission to extend a subset of rights to third parties.

I don't think that's even possible today, if you arent born on the Mars :-)

That's fine because Mongo is a company that plans on making money and holds the copyright. If it turns out AGPL is an issue they can relicense.

The worry with RethinkDB was (at least mine and people I talked to) that it can become a liability if the AGPL turns out to be an issue since some third party owns the original copyright and then who knows what happens with future contributions.

Yeah, that would be a great example of AGPL used to FORCE many parties to PAY for a non-AGPL license.

For example, imagine Digital Ocean using MongoDB to store server configurations. AGPL would force them to open-source their whole infrastructure. All of it. Or pay to get a different license.

I don't have a moral argument to make here -- just making sure people realize the actual trade-offs. AGPL is theoretically for a world where closed source software is simply not allowed to co-exist with opensource, even if you don't distribute it, but simply run it / host it / use it. But that world doesn't exist, so it does the opposite: it is actually used to make sure some of your users have to pay. It enables a business model.

> AGPL would force them to open-source their whole infrastructure. All of it.

Citation needed.

> For example, imagine Digital Ocean using MongoDB to store server configurations. AGPL would force them to open-source their whole infrastructure. All of it. Or pay to get a different license.

I don't think that's correct. From MongoDB the company[0]:

> Note however that it is NOT required that applications using mongo be published. The copyleft applies only to the mongod and mongos database programs. This is why Mongo DB drivers are all licensed under an Apache license. You application, even though it talks to the database, is a separate program and “work”.

[0] https://www.mongodb.com/blog/post/the-agpl

@ralfn

> For example, imagine Digital Ocean using MongoDB to store server configurations. AGPL would force them to open-source their whole infrastructure. All of it. Or pay to get a different license.

AGPL licenses aren't transitive, things that touch AGPL'ed software over the network aren't suddenly required to be AGPL licensed (otherwise the whole purpose of it would fall apart, since a large chunk of the initial design was for Free Software web-applications which could still be run in proprietary web browsers).

AGPL means if you decide to fork a project and add new features, then sell it as a hosted service ala AWS/Azure then you also have to provide anyone that connects to it your modified source code. I'm actually debating using the license right now in a couple of projects I've been prototyping - I don't want to prevent people from being able to make money offering hosted services, but at the same time I don't want hostile SaaS forks that could rip off my work without contributing their changes back (I like the BSD license for libraries, but I'm starting to appreciate the GPL/AGPL more for applications for community-related reasons rather than free software righteousness).

> AGPL licenses aren't transitive, things that touch AGPL'ed software over the network aren't suddenly required to be AGPL licensed (otherwise the whole purpose of it would fall apart, since a large chunk of the initial design was for Free Software web-applications which could still be run in proprietary web browsers).

That is not necessarily true in the case of the database due to how the drivers work. This would need to be tested in court. It's unclear by the license terms alone.

Note that MongoDB clarified their understanding of AGPL in no uncertain terms [0] so they would have trouble dragging someone who developed apps using their DB to court and demanding opensourcing of the app. Without such clarification from their side we would never have touched MongoDB.

[0] https://www.mongodb.com/blog/post/the-agpl

That's why I said in the past that the AGPL was not a huge concern for as long as a commercial entity stands behind RethinkDB. Once that broke away who knows what individual contributors think of what the AGPL means (let alone a judge).

The AGPL makes this explicitly clear:

> 13. Remote Network Interaction; Use with the GNU General Public License. > > Notwithstanding any other provision of this License, if you modify the Program, your modified version must prominently offer all users interacting with it remotely through a computer network (if your version supports such interaction) an opportunity to receive the Corresponding Source of your version by providing access to the Corresponding Source from a network server at no charge, through some standard or customary means of facilitating copying of software. This Corresponding Source shall include the Corresponding Source for any work covered by version 3 of the GNU General Public License that is incorporated pursuant to the following paragraph. > > Notwithstanding any other provision of this License, you have permission to link or combine any covered work with a work licensed under version 3 of the GNU General Public License into a single combined work, and to convey the resulting work. The terms of this License will continue to apply to the part which is the covered work, but the work with which it is combined will remain governed by version 3 of the GNU General Public License.

Users interacting with the modified program over the network have a right to access the modified source, there's absolutely nothing about the client software (database drivers, web browsers, etc) accessing it being considered part of a combined work. You can access a AGPL licensed database or whatever from a proprietary application with absolutely no issue, you just can't modify the AGPL'ed work, expose it to users other than yourself, and not share your modifications.

Do yourself a favor, grab https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.txt and https://www.gnu.org/licenses/agpl-3.0.txt and run `diff` on them, this is literally the only substantive difference in the entire license text.

> Users interacting with the modified program over the network have a right to access the modified source, there's absolutely nothing about the client software (database drivers, web browsers, etc) accessing it being considered part of a combined work.

No, but there is a definition of corresponding source which includes code beyond the direct scope of the AGPL in case of mongodb: "Corresponding Source includes interface definition files associated with source files for the work, and the source code for shared libraries and dynamically linked subprograms that the work is specifically designed to require, such as by intimate data communication or control flow between those subprograms and other parts of the work."

This is one point of contention that was brought up by multiple people in the past because it puts client libraries into the scope.

This is the same text that is in the traditional GPL, and nobody has tried to claim that it requires additional libraries or programs like database drivers talking to a GPL'ed database must be GPL. This would immediately prevent anyone from using MariaDB, since it is GPL licensed.

Literally the only delta between the GPL and AGPL is the Remote Network Interaction section, it doesn't extend the reach of the GPL license in regards to database drivers, etc.

We rationally and happily chose AGPL for our platform. I advise everyone to do the same in my longer comment on this page. You can ask me why by replying to it.

Very large companies and governmental entities are using AGPL-licensed copies of OpenERP (now Odoo). In my experience, working for a company that provided services based on it, the license was never a problem.

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