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Comment by smaddox | Hacker News Reader

Obviously the answer is no, but the average reader likely doesn't know which minerals are elements and which are molecules. The statement seems redundant to you and I, but it is a key fact and likely not obvious to anyone with minimal chemistry/physics training.

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"The statement seems redundant to you and I"

As long as we're on the subject of pedantry, and with your kind leave, may I humbly point out that the above statement should read "The statement seems redundant to you and me"? If in doubt, drop the words "you and" then see how the sentence works:

"The statement seems redundant to I"

"The statement seems redundant to me"

http://www.betterwritingskills.com/tip-w026.html

There are no hard rules with grammar. Just conventions. If we understood what the person meant, then they succeeded at their goal of communicating.

That's true, but the convention for educated English speakers has it that it should be "you and me", or "us". They may have succeeded at communicating facts but they also conveyed some slight ignorance to some subset of people reading it.

Definitely wouldn't have taken the time to point it out, though.

By all means! At the same time, there may be something to be said for writing well. I was reminded of this thread:

Rare is the leader who can actually write well https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=429298

and especially part of a comment by Alex3917[1], quoting 37signals's Getting Real[2]:

"If you are trying to decide between a few people to fill a position, always hire the better writer. It doesn't matter if that person is a designer, programmer, marketer, salesperson, or whatever, the writing skills will pay off. Effective, concise writing and editing leads to effective, concise code, design, emails, instant messages, and more."

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=429352

[2] http://gettingreal.37signals.com

except he was specifically being pedantic. You can't combat pedantic criticism with "But grammar is just conventions". Grammatical pedantry deals with exactly those conventional nuances.

It wasn't pedantry about grammar, it was pedantry about meaning. If a Russian with bad English grammar tried to correct your code, would you try to correct his use of "was" rather than "were"?

No, it was grammar. Because the grammar shaped the meaning. But when you are dealing specifically with meaning or context and not formal conventions, it is considered a semantic, not pedantic. I don't generally correct people's grammar mistakes these days because I myself have laxed quite a bit in favor of "progressing" my language a bit. But I especially wouldn't correct a foreigner just because, only if I felt they would be receptive to the advice. I would certainly appreciate the same when using a language I'm not familiar with.

It was simply a factually incorrect statement. It was about grammar as much as "fish ride bicycles" is about grammar.

edit: It actually wasn't incorrect at all... I'd lost track of the original statement:) It was just something that would be obvious to people who understood basic chemistry. Either way, it wouldn't be a question of grammar (any more than "some fish swim in the ocean.")

>There are no hard rules with grammar. Just conventions. If we understood what the person meant, then they succeeded at their goal of communicating.

If I have to put a lot of effort at decoding what someone says, it's less likely that I'll bother. I'm sure we could all decode l33tspeak but that doesn't mean someone who uses it "succeeded".

Only because it's called the Geneva Convention that doesn't mean that you shouldn't follow it.

That's a pretty interesting point. Never knew that.

What's even more interesting about this particular mistake (at least to me) is that it often shows up as hypercorrection[1] by educated, fluent speakers of English who've been socialized to recognize "You and me" as the subject of a sentence as wrong, and perhaps as ignorant-sounding, but have formed a too-aggressive (wrong) representation of the underlying rule.

Basically, I know a bunch of people who've been to college and would jump right down your throat if they hear you say "You and me should grab coffee some time," but will walk around all day saying things like "Hey, let's see if Fred wants to grab coffee with you and I."

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection#Personal_prono...

Touché.

If you really want to go there, "you and I" is never correct by the rules of English grammar. It's only when we apply the foreign rules of Latin grammar to English that we wind up with things like "you and I", which needs to be taught. It has, however, become a marker of education and good manners, so even though it is manifestly incorrect, it is often a better choice to use it in subject position in formal circumstances. Expectations outweigh correctness in this case.

All the dietary minerals are chemical elements: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_(nutrient)

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